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[dave w]

Since the noise is causing it, what is the chances that me moving the XPFM down to the switch on the wall will stop the noise? Is the noise from the motor going to travel down the wire if I put the inline relay at my wall  switch or is it because it's up in the fan housing?

Doubtful. The theory is back EMF from the fan motor causes the Local Control circuit in the appliance module to turn the load back on. I have the same problem and my appliance module is mounted on the fan switch wall plate which is about 15 feet from the motor. I have never tried to fix the problem as it only happens on low speed, which we do not use.

If it IS noise you should be able to fix with an in-line noise filter. Local Control feature is causing the problem is going to be harder to fix. If it is a newer Appliance Module (XPFMs are Appliance Modules on the inside) I don't know if anyone has figured how to disable the feature. On older modules the feature can be defeated by cutting a diode near the output side of the latching relay. Google "Appliance Module" "Local COntrol" for web sites with instructions. Here is Ido's X10 page http://idobartana.com/hakb/ which has directions for an older style module.

[MANOWAR©]

It does stop when I put the fan on high but that is too fast for my bedroom. It's more of an annoyance since the fan stays on 24/7 anyway but I hate not having things perfect.

[MANOWAR©]

Ok, I found this box extension.

http://www.a1components.com/itemdisplayn.aspx?item=11308

I know it's supposed to be for low voltage only but I'm not worried about that. It will fit in my wall space. Here is my question. Will and XPS3 work to turn the fan on and off only and not be affected by the "noise" and turn back on when I turn it off? If not, which decor style switch will work?

[Boiler]

Ok, I found this box extension.

http://www.a1components.com/itemdisplayn.aspx?item=11308

I know it's supposed to be for low voltage only but I'm not worried about that. It will fit in my wall space. Here is my question. Will and XPS3 work to turn the fan on and off only and not be affected by the "noise" and turn back on when I turn it off? If not, which decor style switch will work?

To the best of my knowledge, the XPS3 does not have a sense circuit like the XPFM.  It should not respond to back EMF from the fan.

Rather than using a low voltage box extension, please look into a dual gang retrofit box.  If you're cutting the drywall anyway, why not do the job to code? 

Another possible solution would be to replace the XPFM with a Smarthome InlineLinc relay unit.  I've used these on a couple of fans without any back-EMF problems.  Although they are Insteon units, they can be programmed with an X10 address so that they respond the same as your XPFM.  They are more $$, and you will need to program them by sending a X10 ON command 3X (i.e. you need some sort of controller - AHP can do this).

InlincLinc: InlineLinc Manual

[MANOWAR©]

Ok, I found this box extension.

http://www.a1components.com/itemdisplayn.aspx?item=11308

I know it's supposed to be for low voltage only but I'm not worried about that. It will fit in my wall space. Here is my question. Will and XPS3 work to turn the fan on and off only and not be affected by the "noise" and turn back on when I turn it off? If not, which decor style switch will work?

To the best of my knowledge, the XPS3 does not have a sense circuit like the XPFM.  It should not respond to back EMF from the fan.

Rather than using a low voltage box extension, please look into a dual gang retrofit box.  If you're cutting the drywall anyway, why not do the job to code? 

Another possible solution would be to replace the XPFM with a Smarthome InlineLinc relay unit.  I've used these on a couple of fans without any back-EMF problems.  Although they are Insteon units, they can be programmed with an X10 address so that they respond the same as your XPFM.  They are more $$, and you will need to program them by sending a X10 ON command 3X (i.e. you need some sort of controller - AHP can do this).

InlincLinc: InlineLinc Manual

I'd love to use a dual gang retrofit but the existing box is nailed to the stud and the wires feed in from below and go out the top.  I'd have to cut the dry wall above and below it also to get it out and I don't want to patch it. My wife painted the room some weird color and I don't want to patch, and and paint when I can just cut the side a bit and run the wires over and be done in a few minutes. Lazy I know. 

[Boiler]

If your current box is plastic you should be able to "dice it" out of the wall with a drill/hole saw. 

If the current box is metal, take a close look at the inside - if it's a RACO box (or similar) with square corners it should be expandable.  If the internal corners are rounded you're out of luck.

Expandable box Link: RACO Expandable Box

[MANOWAR©]

It's plastic. I was reading here further and apparently the XPS3's can have the same problems. Is the XP XPNR a possible solution? It says it filters noise.

[Boiler]

It's plastic. I was reading here further and apparently the XPS3's can have the same problems. Is the XP XPNR a possible solution? It says it filters noise.

Manowar,

After you mentioned the posts regarding the XPS3's I searched myself - yep, you're correct.  What's worse is I was involved in a couple of those threads and completely forgot about it (the mind is the first this to ...).

Anyway, I said it back in '07 and I'll repeat it now - a relay switch should not have this problem.  I can see absolutely no go reason for having a load sense circuit on the output of a relay wall switch.  Still, we have the obvious reports of problems.  I can't argue with these facts.  There appears to be something in the "newer" XPS3's that allows them to be fooled into turning back on when used with some fans (at some speeds).

From now on I'll stop suggesting what should work and rely on what I have recent first hand experience with -
I am using Smarthome Icon and Switchlinc relay switches on both Hunter and Harbor Breeze fans.  I have had zero problems with any of these (5) fans at any speed.

I've used the Inlinelinc relay module at a friends installation (2 fans - don't know the make).

Sorry if I lead you down a path...

Boiler

[MANOWAR©]

It's plastic. I was reading here further and apparently the XPS3's can have the same problems. Is the XP XPNR a possible solution? It says it filters noise.

Manowar,

After you mentioned the posts regarding the XPS3's I searched myself - yep, you're correct.  What's worse is I was involved in a couple of those threads and completely forgot about it (the mind is the first this to ...).

Anyway, I said it back in '07 and I'll repeat it now - a relay switch should not have this problem.  I can see absolutely no go reason for having a load sense circuit on the output of a relay wall switch.  Still, we have the obvious reports of problems.  I can't argue with these facts.  There appears to be something in the "newer" XPS3's that allows them to be fooled into turning back on when used with some fans (at some speeds).

From now on I'll stop suggesting what should work and rely on what I have recent first hand experience with -
I am using Smarthome Icon and Switchlinc relay switches on both Hunter and Harbor Breeze fans.  I have had zero problems with any of these (5) fans at any speed.

I've used the Inlinelinc relay module at a friends installation (2 fans - don't know the make).

Sorry if I lead you down a path...

Boiler

No need to apologize at all. I'm still learning this stuff and any info helps. I'm gonna try the XPS3 down next to the WS12A with that extension ring box thing. Worst case scenario I take the X10 part out and use a regular decor wall switch. Like I said the fan stays on 24/7 anyway.  I'm gonna try some fire alarm parts my company uses for noise reduction and see if any of them work. I've got a LOT of experience with noisy circuits in my job and some solutions we've found have been off the wall to say the least but they've worked. If the XPS3 does the same thing then I'm gonna take the XPFM and send it in to my companies engineers and have them look at it off the clock. They worked miracles for me in the past. This is a great site and the best resource I've found. Just what I've learned here since starting X10 has helped me tons so far. 

[Brian H]

Your engineers will most likely find a very small AC current flowing into the load even when off.
The electronics has to know if the alternating relay/ switch is on or off. So if an on is seen on the address and it is on now. It will not pulse the switch to off by mistake. This small current is a result of this circuit. I removed mine in an appliance module and it got confused. Pulsed the switch about three times like a machine gun before giving up. 
Some have added a 220K 1/2 watt resistor across the load to squash this current. 47K is the lowest I would go if needed as that would give you about 1/3 watt of power in a 1/2 Watt resistor.

[MANOWAR©]

Your engineers will most likely find a very small AC current flowing into the load even when off.
The electronics has to know if the alternating relay/ switch is on or off. So if an on is seen on the address and it is on now. It will not pulse the switch to off by mistake. This small current is a result of this circuit. I removed mine in an appliance module and it got confused. Pulsed the switch about three times like a machine gun before giving up. 
Some have added a 220K 1/2 watt resistor across the load to squash this current. 47K is the lowest I would go if needed as that would give you about 1/3 watt of power in a 1/2 Watt resistor.

So I just put a 220K 1/2 watt resistor across the blue and white at the device right.

[MANOWAR©]

I had another thought. Is there any reason I can't put a XPS3 with the same address as the XPFM down at the wall switch next to my WS12A and keep the XPFM up in the fan housing. The XPS3 would be breaking the black feeding the XPFM when the OFF command is sent so it couldn't come back on. It would work right?

[Boiler]

I had another thought. Is there any reason I can't put a XPS3 with the same address as the XPFM down at the wall switch next to my WS12A and keep the XPFM up in the fan housing. The XPS3 would be breaking the black feeding the XPFM when the OFF command is sent so it couldn't come back on. It would work right?

Hello Manowar,

I'm sorry, but this is not a good idea on a number of levels.  The XPFM is an electronic device and is not designed to be continuously power cycled.  The XPFM does have some protection in the form of filtering/transient suppression, however using the XPS3 to remove/reapply power is not a controlled event.  I think you would be significantly reducing the life of the XPFM.

Aside from the above, for an off command you would wind up with a race condition between the XPFM and XPS3.  I don't know if the XPFM relay would release if power was in the process of going down.

For an on sequence, your XPFM would be unpowered and would not hear the X10 command.

There are a number of other problems as well, but the above are what leaps to mind.

I would strongly recommend against this,
Boiler

[MANOWAR©]

Yeah, I sort of figured it would. I've got an XPS3 coming in the mail so I'm gonna try that down at the light switch first and see if it does the same thing. Can't hurt trying. If nothing else I'll just put a normal decor switch in to turn it off all they way when I need to. Thanks everyone for all the replies.

[Brian H]

Yes the load is Blue and White. I believe Boiler was the one who has used 220K resistors on some module.