X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: Duck69 on January 03, 2010, 08:28:46 PM
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Details is the source of many headaches and troubleshooting problems.
The thing is that we tend to look at the main components and often times overlook some small detail that could be the source of our troubles.
As an example: Recently I upgraded my 100 AMP service panel at the back of the house to a 200 AMP panel.
Because of several problems the new service panel had to be located at the front of the house. (Don't even ask.)
I also have a backup generator and thought that this would be a good time to install a (manual) generator power transfer switch. We ran new wiring through the attic from the new service panel to the old service panel (now a junction box) for the circuits and also to the transfer switch. Re-installed XPCP phase coupler at new service panel. Tested and labeled everything.
Day 5, it's evening and all is well.
What's up ? Kitchen & hall lights didn't come on. ???
Did I say that we tested everything ?
Well we tested almost everything. Didn't bother to test my X10 set up.
Why bother ? It was working before.
So, I go back out to the new panel, checked the XPCP connections and tested it. It's OK.
What the "FIRETRUCK" is going on.
Day 6. OK! Start thinking from scratch. Hours later.......Oh yeah ! -:) The transfer switch. -:) Split phase ! -:) B:( >*<
All's well that ends well.
So be sure to pay very close attention to DETAILS.
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Thank you for sharing.
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BUT ! Like I said "DETAILS".
Once again it has bit me in the A%&. :'(
This is what happens when you are lazy.
So, I coupled the phases at the transfer switch & checked the Kitchen light & Hall lights.
Fine they are working.....
Not so fast Fredrick ! :-[
This AM, home office light not working. I'll be Dam&%( ! B:(
-:) OK, I need some help here.
Installed new breaker panel, installed generator transfer switch, using old breaker panel as junction box (guts removed except for grounding and neutral). Have a XPCP phase coupler in new breaker panel and another in the transfer switch.
Half of system is working, half isn't on either PL or RF.
Any ideas ? What the heck am I missing ?
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OK Lets see if this sounds like the setup.
Power from street goes to one of the transfer switch inputs.
Power from generator goes to one of the transfer switches inputs.
Common from transfer switch goes to the new breaker panel with the old gutted box still a tie point for ground and neutral.
Is the switch an automatic one that transfers when the generator starts and the street power gets disconnected for safety of the power grid?
This is a long shot here: I wounder if you have the phases bucking each other with two XPCP couplers. Try swapping the two line leads on one of the two XPCP couplers and see if it gets better or worse.
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Power from street goes to breaker panel then on to the transfer switch.
Power through panel is connected to dual - 60 Amp breakers in transfer switch and to breakers for 4 circuits.
Power from generator is connected to dual - 30Amp breakers and on to the same 4 breakers and circuits.
The transfer switch is manual. For safety, there is a bar that prevents having the 60 Amp (Street) & 30 Amp (Generator) breakers on at the same time.
Common from transfer switch goes to the new breaker panel with the old gutted box still a tie point for ground and neutral.
Notes:
I removed the extra XPCR from the transfer box.
I posted incorrectly earlier. I have the XPCR (coupler repeater) not the XPCP (coupler).
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Thanks for the added data and clarifications.
Will give it a look. Hopefully see something.
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When you upgraded the service and installed the new panel. Where some of the original circuits changed to GFI or AFI Breakers to meet current code?
Are most of the problems on the circuits that can be transferred to generator or street power?
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When you upgraded the service and installed the new panel. Where some of the original circuits changed to GFI or AFI Breakers to meet current code?
Nothing new.
I do have GFI's for where there is water. Such as the kitchen & bathroom circuits.
Are most of the problems on the circuits that can be transferred to generator or street power?
Just one of the four. And nothing has been added to it.
I am thinking of moving one leg of the XPCR to that breaker.
What do you think ?
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Would be a good test and may give more details to this problem.
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>*< I moved the XPCR but there was no change.
-:) I believe the problem has to do with with installing the new breaker panel.
The panel is now about 40 feet from the original and that much closer to the transformer in the street.....?
I still don't have any test equipment for X10. So, it has pretty much been hit or miss this far.
Any suggestions at all would be most welcomed.
Buy a signal meter ?
Buy a XTB-11R ?
Buy both ?
Buy neither ?
Go fishing ?
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I was hoping that some fresh eyes may think of something I may have missed and chime in. Anyone?
I would say an X10 Test Meter would be a big help. You know my new favorite is the XTBM.
XTB-IIR Repeater maybe after you see what signal levels you are getting from the XPCR around the house.
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We ran new wiring through the attic from the new service panel to the old service panel (now a junction box) for the circuits and also to the transfer switch. Re-installed XPCP phase coupler at new service panel. Tested and labeled everything.
What's up ? Kitchen & hall lights didn't come on. ???
...........So, I go back out to the new panel, checked the XPCP connections and tested it. It's OK.
This is where I get lost. New panel. Coupler/Repeater at the panel. Some sort of transceiver(s) at or near the panel? Everything should be working. If a CM11A or CM15A is used... after the wiring was completed it was reloaded with macros and settings.
If the generator switch is thrown ON... without the generator ON: Those circuits should lose normal power (I assume you checked them for power). Could be several problems with X10 and the generator ON... but that isn't the problem now.
So... besides the new 200 AMP panel.. is there something else new? Like a reason for the upgrade... maybe a big hot tub, or small server setup, 65 inch plasma TV, Home Theater equipment, or UPS? Maybe a circuit that was filtered before.. but for some reason isn't now?
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Any suggestions at all would be most welcomed.
Buy a signal meter ?
Buy a XTB-11R ?
Buy both ?
Buy neither ?
Go fishing ?
Buy both then go fishing.
duck it appears you have added a lot of new road for the X10 signal. Everything worked when the XPCR was at the old panel. Since you are using the old panel as a tie point, could you move the XPCR back to the old panel for a test? My thought would be if it works again the road is just too long and to put a XTBIIR at the new panel. I think the XTBM will tell you where your problem is.
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The upgrade was for safety. The old panel had 4 & 5 wires wire-nutted together. Found bare wires in walls where base heaters were. No idea what went where. Etc..
There were 3 changes made.
1) New breaker panel
2) Added generator switch box.
3) Circuits that were wire-nutted together were separated & put on their own breakers.
a) The old baseboard heater circuits are on breakers that are left turned off & the bare wires capped (future use).
The XPCR was reinstalled in the new panel.
There is no transceiver near the new panel. (actually further away now).
I need to have the CM15A where I have it now for computer control and am unable to relocate the computer.
I think dave w, is right. The extra 40' seems to make the difference.
I wonder if Jeff wants to give me a XTB-11R for my wife's birthday on the 21st.
rofl That's what I thought !
The transfer switch box.
Power from the main panel to 2 - 60 Amp breakers. Phases 1 & 2
Power from the 60 Amp breakers to 4 - 20 Amp breakers.
Power from the generator to 2 - 30 Amp breakers.
Power from the generator 30 Amp breakers to the same 4 - 20 Amp breakers.
Switch box has a metal bar that prevents both the 60 Amp breakers from the main panel & the 50 Amp breakers from the generator being on at the same time.
In order to use generator power, the breaker that gets power from the main panel has to be turned off before you can turn on the breaker for the generator.
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I ordered the XTB-11R on Thursday the 14th. It got here yesterday.
That was pretty darn FAST considering Monday was a holiday.
The packaging was excellent. Upon removing the cover it is very OBVIOUS that the unit was PROFESSIONALLY made.
#:) Excellent work Jeff.
Now I am itching to install it, but we've been having storm after storm here in Northern CA. & I don't want to be out there.....in the cold & wet ! Maybe this weekend.
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Glad you got it fast. I can tell you that in one test. With my XTBM Meter and the XTB-IIR in place. A TM751 in the outlet on the front of it. One circuit I have is 1.45 volts. OK not real great but it has six signal sucking modules on it. Removing the modules and the voltage was about 8.5 volts. A few places in my home read 9.99 volts which is the readout limit. It is most likely higher than that.
If memory serves me. The old Smarthome Dryer outlet one with the XTB-IIR off line. Read in the .05 volt area on that circuit with the six suckers.
Keep dry Duck69 and I hope all the weather we are seeing in CA quiets down.
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Finally got a break in the weather today & for the next 2 days before the next rains.
Please see my earlier post below: "Re: DETAILS - Correction made 1/26/10".
Since my dryer is gas, I converted the dryer electrical outlet to feed the XTB-IIR and installed the XTB-IIR.
Unfortunately, I don't have a signal meter to do any testing.
At any rate the XTB-IIR did not solve my original problem.
I wanted to get a XTB-IIR anyway and since I had/have this problem the wife let me get one.
I am sure that I am overlooking some small detail.
Anyway, I believe it must be the transfer switch. Please correct me !
It seems to me that since I have 220v going to the transfer switch. 110v on each leg that the circuits being fed (2 on each phase) would also need to be coupled.
Yes ? No ? Take an electrical class ?
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Are the problem circuits the ones that go through the transfer switch?
How far away from the main feed is the dryer outlet you used?
It sounds like the signals from the dryer outlet. Have to go back to the new main panel and then to the transfer switch or did I mesread the corrections you made?
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Yes, the problems are only on the circuits that go through the transfer switch.
The dryer outlet is about 20' from the main & yes the signal has to go back to the main then about 30' to the transfer switch.
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The XTB-IIR should get the signals on both phases through the main breaker box to the transfer switch on both phases.
I would not think an added coupler would be needed.
I hope Jeff may have some added thoughts; as he seems to test all kinds of situations.
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The XTB-IIR should certainly be able to drive a strong signal out onto any circuits that it feeds. However, the distance between the XTB-IIR and the distribution point will impact how strong the signals are because X10 signals decrease in amplitude as the propagate away from the transmitter.
As I understand it, the path looks like this:
XTB-IIR -> Dryer outlet -> Panel -> Transfer Switch -> Panel -> other circuits
So that run will be at least 20 + 30 + 30 = 80 feet. There can be significant losses in a run of that length. However, even with that additional run there should still be a much stronger signal with the XTB-IIR. Is there perhaps some signal sucker out at the transfer switch that could be excessively loading that path? Are you sure those lines are actually connected to both phases?
Indeed a passive coupler to bypass the run out to the transfer switch may help.
Jeff
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Problem found !
As I mentioned earlier, I used the old main panel as a junction box.
That is where the problem is located.
This morning Beth felt chilly so I plugged a portable heater into an outlet in our home office.
Right away the breaker tripped.
As I went through the kitchen I noticed that the coffee had stopped perking & the clock on the microwave was off.
It came to me in a flash - Duh! The kitchen & home office outlets are on the same circuit.
Talk about noise generating signal sucking *&^$$# computers, microwave etc.. etc..
How in the world did that happen ? Must have been a "Senior Moment".
Now, it's fun time again, as soon as I get done laughing at myself rofl rofl rofl :)% Good one! rofl rofl rofl
Guess what my weekend project is going to be. >!
Like I said in the beginning..... It's all in the details !
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Happy hunting.
:o Wow and I thought I had a few messy junction boxes. Your old panel makes mine look good. Are the wires labeled by any chance?
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Details! Details !
Label the wires ? ..... -:)
Sure as heck wish I had. I just didn't bother.
Why ?
Because I stupidly figured that I would never have to mess with it again. B:(
Well, I guess I'm going hunting this weekend.
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Oh don't feel to bad. I have done similar things myself.
Like disassemble something and NOT write down what went where. As my memory is good. :' ::)
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Like disassemble something and NOT write down what went where.
Does anyone actually do that?
Jeff
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Yes I know one person real close to me. ;D Or better yet write it down and loose the paper. rofl
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Or worse yet ... write it down and not understand what you've written down. :)
r,
eagle
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Or worse yet ... write it down and not understand what you've written down. :)
I THOUGHT I WAS THE ONLY ONE WHO DID THAT? Oh wow I feel so much better. Thanks!
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I am completely stumped.
It feels like I am >*<
It all worked prior to upgrading the service panel and installing the generator transfer switch.
Now:
RF is working except in the home office.
PL is not working.
The run is now more that twice of what is was.
Therefore installed the XTB-IIR to compensate for it.
Attached 2 photos. 1 is old set up and second one is the new setup.
Any ideas -:) ?
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Should I put a XPF in the new panel ? Transfer switch ? Both ? or ?????
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I see two issues with the new configuration. First, if that is a XPF filter between your CM15A and your transfer switch, that will block the X10 signal from reaching the distribution panel.
Second, it looks like you substantially increased the wire length between the CM15A and your new distribution panel. As you know, X10 signals decrease in amplitude as they propagate away from the transmitter. Even if there is no XPF blocking the signal on the CM15A circuit, the additional wire length will reduce the signal strength even more. The new distribution panel will be a major load on any remaining signal, and the signal strength has probably dropped into the noise level by the time it reaches the XTB-IIR.
If you have a XPF in the CM15A circuit, you certainly should remove that. Then if the CM15A signal strength is still too weak, you could try moving the XTB-IIR onto the CM15A circuit to pick up its direct feed. That may be possible at the old distribution panel if you have both phases there.
Jeff
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I also agree with Jeff's first point. The XPF between the CM15A and the panel. Will be a problem.
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For $13.39 you can get these USB over cat5 extenders that will let you run your USB 150 ft with simple cat5 wire. What about moving the CM15A out to the new panel and extending the USB back to the computer with these? Then the CM15A will be centrally located at the new panel.
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=103&cp_id=10303&cs_id=1030304&p_id=6042&seq=1&format=2 (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=103&cp_id=10303&cs_id=1030304&p_id=6042&seq=1&format=2)
Just a thought
Dan B.
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For $13.39 you can get these USB over cat5 extenders that will let you run your USB 150 ft with simple cat5 wire.......http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=103&cp_id=10303&cs_id=1030304&p_id=6042&seq=1&format=2 (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=103&cp_id=10303&cs_id=1030304&p_id=6042&seq=1&format=2)
dbemowsk thanks for the link... thats a GREAT price.. have you purchased from that outfit before?
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I buy cables from there for work all the time. That's how I found that little gem. Most of the USB to cat5 extenders I have seen are between $50 and $70.
This company has pretty fast shipping too.
Dan
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Found some time yesterday to get some work done.
I removed the XPF filters and since I had extra space in the new panel, I installed a new 15 Amp circuit that goes to a single outlet, to be used for the CM15A. It is only a 8 to 10 foot run.
When time permits I will load my control software on my laptop and use the laptop for testing.
Then when the USB Cat5 extenders get here I will test that by running cat5 to the HO computer. I will have to get someone to help me run the cable either in the attic (doubtful) or crawl space (likely).
-:) At any rate, I have an old Mac with a dead power supply (PS). A new PS for it is expensive, so I decided to use a PC PS.
I bought a PC case ($50) that has a PS in it of the right wattage and will attempt to put the Mac internals into the PC case. I will have to do some mods for it to fit, but the main challenge will be to get the wiring right.
IF successful I will use it for a server. If not..... Oh well !
Why not just simply put the PC supply into the Mac ?
"Cause that aint no fun !.
This way the project is gonna be FUN Fun Fun :)% :)% :)%
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Just curious. How old a Mac?
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It's a 2002 model.
Dual boot with dual 1.25 GHz processors, ATI Radeon 9000, 2 GB of RAM.
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I have an old Blue and White G3 that I added a third party G4 Processor Daughter Board.
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For $13.39 you can get these USB over cat5 extenders that will let you run your USB 150 ft with simple cat5 wire. What about moving the CM15A out to the new panel and extending the USB back to the computer with these? Then the CM15A will be centrally located at the new panel.
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=103&cp_id=10303&cs_id=1030304&p_id=6042&seq=1&format=2 (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=103&cp_id=10303&cs_id=1030304&p_id=6042&seq=1&format=2)
Just a thought
Dan B.
Thanks for this information as well. I have used Monoprice many times before for A/V cables and connectors. They have always had excellent products and prices. I recommend them highly for those who've not heard of them before. In this case, I've recently installed a new XTB-IIR near my breaker box in the garage and plugged my CM15A into its front. For many reasons, this works bettter than it's old location. However, I now don't have a USB connection between the CM15A and my laptop in the den. The USB extenders you mentioned and some CAT5 cable and I'll be all set! Thanks!
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Thank you all for your help. :)% :)% >!
The problem turned out to be a bad switch.
The witch is something that didn't even cross my mind.
I focused on the new service panel & transfer switch installation believing that, the problem had to be there somewhere & overlooked everything else. Besides causing myself some frustration, I did manage to find & correct the kitchen/office outlet situation. So all in all it wasn't completely fruitless.
Once again thank you >!
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Glad you found it.
I have had similar findings. Install some new stuff and have a problem. Never thinking maybe part of the original installation developed a problem. ???