X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: pconahan on March 05, 2011, 04:41:25 PM
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Hello folks. Newbie here. I've already put in a number of modules and sockets. I just put in a WM467 that controls 9 45 watt incandescents. The switch works fine, but I can't control the lights from my pc or from 10 commander.
My CM15a is probably about 40 feet from the light switch. I haven't really had any 'line noise' issues so far.
Any ideas?
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Is the WS467 new enough to be soft start?
What version of AHP are you using with the WS467?
http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Newer_WS467s_and_Preset_Dim
Even though the switch maybe forty feet from the CM15A. It is possible they are on a different circuit and maybe on the other phase of the homes wiring.
http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm
http://www.act-remote.com/PCC/uncle.htm
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I haven't really had any 'line noise' issues so far.
Are you sure? What you describe could be from line noise or a phase coupling problem. The CM15A controls the WS467 via powerline signals, not RF, so you could have a noise generator between the CM15A and the switch. Also if you have electric range and dryer, turn on dryer and oven and see if signal get to switch. If so you have a Phase Coupling problem.
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Thank you very much gentlemen,
Brian, I'm using 3.306
So, I turned oven and dryer on, but still no remote operation of those switches.
So, my next steps(and please, I will take any suggestions) :
1. I have 4 Fluorescent lights in my basement, I will eliminate those.
2. I'm going to port AHP over to a laptop and try remote operation while on battery, shutting our desktop down.
3. Unplug DVRs, VCRs, Wii, et al
......then try again. I suppose I could also shut down all non-critical breakers and try as well
Thoughts? Thanks guys!
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Oh, and yes, the WS467 are soft starting. There's no date on them, but they are new.
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http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Newer_Wall_Switches_and_Preset_Dim
With 3.306 for soft start you use the Lamps Tab models.
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Brian, shouldn't you say the Lamps section under Modules?
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Yes sir, I'm using the right one.
Only update I have tonight is that I put another ws467 out for the light on my pool house. That has the same issue. Good at switch, not so good from AHP. I put a socketrocket in the pool house. Does not work either.
Will have to wait until tomorrow to do any serious breaker shut downs.
Thanks guys
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You need a "flamethrower" repeater:
XTBIIR - Best (http://jvde.us/)
ACT CR234 - Better (http://www.smarthome.com/4821AC/HomePro-CR234-Amplified-X10-Coupler-Repeater-w-Repeated-Signal-Detection/p.aspx)
XPCR - Good (http://www.smarthome.com/4820X/X10-Signal-Amplifier-Repeater-XPCR/p.aspx)
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@Dave W......of course I respect your solutioning, but I've got another wrench or two to throw into the mystery:
1. I hastily shut down all non-critical breakers this evening and tested my two bothersome areas, the pool and office. I was able to raise the pool house with most everything else shut down. Success, right????
2. The office, not so much. So, after so more reading and understanding of the technology...... I recently purchased a TED 5000, which is attached in the breaker box, but also has components in the office, and it seems clear that the two possibly compete with data transferring over the line. I'm not ready to say this is the issue, but it seems clear to me that I have to disconnect the TED 5000 from my breaker box to prove the issue out. This is not an easy troubleshoot as the box doesn't have lots of room for maneuver and I had an electrician come to manhandle the clips between the meter and the box.
So, in other brief research, it seems this issue has been resolved with an inline filter of the TED at the box. Thoughts? Any ideas on cost of inline filters? It its after the main breaker, I think I can handlee, if before the main, not so much.
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#2 Sounds like a real possibility.
The TED5000 sends constant data, at zero crossing. Just like X10 does.
X10 is 120 KHz and the TED5000 uses 132 KHz. Probably close enough to effect X10 as others have found out. Surely effects Insteon users as Insteon is 131.65 KHz.
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Yes, TED can cause severe problems for X10 because it steps on every X10 transmission.
The only solution I am aware of is to put that communication on an independent circuit that is isolated with a X10 XPF filter. Obviously, that circuit cannot also be used for X10 traffic.
Jeff
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OK, just bought a filter AND a coupler repeater :)
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Wohoo!. Looks like you have done an excellent job of troubleshooting.
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Couple of more newbie, quick questions guys?
1. Bought an XPF filter...do I need one for each phase if I intend to couple the phases? I should put this where I have the TED powered in the box, right? The TED is piggy-backing on the circuit for my dryer. So, I would have all three going in there...
2. Bought a XPCR coupler/repeater..... It reads to put in on a 15/20amp circuit. Does it matter which one?
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Couple of more newbie, quick questions guys?
2. Bought a XPCR coupler/repeater..... It reads to put in on a 15/20amp circuit. Does it matter which one?
Can't help on #1, but from a code standpoint you should use dedicated breakers for the XPCR. You should not try and share a breaker already protecting a branch. Mixing solid and stranded wire under the same breaker screw can cause overheating at the connection.
15 amp breakers would be the proper size.
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Disregard Question Number 2, its in and working great!!!!!!!!!!
That said, with the repeater coupler in, maybe I don't have as much of a noise/TED problem as I thought....
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Yeah, my theory is a "flamethrower" repeater and fix anything, including nearsightedness and excess flatulance....wife disagrees.
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Too funny Dave! So, all breakers are taken at this point(as far as I know until I get it mapped properly, which I intend to do).
The electrical in our house apparently has quite a history, so its possible there are breakers with no purpose. Will provide an update soon.
Thanks again everyone!
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"flamethrower" repeater. Is what some of us call the JV Engineering XTB-IIR Coupler Repeater.
It blasts an X10 signal back on the power lines.
My lowest X10 signal is like 1.75 volts measured by the XTBM X10 signal meter. My highest is 9.95 volts near the repeater at the breaker box.
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So, all breakers are taken at this point
No knockouts left?
-:) Well I am not recommending or advocating this, but I do know a person who did wire a repeater into used breakers by squeezing an additional 14ga solid pigtail under the breaker screw and then wire nutted the solid pig tail to the stranded wires of the repeater. So far his breaker panel has not burst into flames (AFAIK).
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Nope, nothing open that I can tell, but that could change with my mapping. This is quite the tedious task. To complicate matters, I put in a few more light switches yesterday and now I've got different lights automagically turning on by themselves. Maybe I need that filter after all?
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Nope, nothing open that I can tell,
$0.02
Looking at your breaker panel, if you have knockouts left below your existing breakers you can install new breakers. No knockouts mean your panel is at capacity, but unless your home is very old, the panel is usually sized to have some reserve capacity.
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This home was built in 1951 Somewhere in the 70's or 80's, the tree out front was hit by lightning and it was close enough of a strike to fry lots of wiring, at least up to the panel. Some wires appear brand new, others are falling apart. There is a whole house surge protector now. I'm not against a new breaker box if its necessary for safety. So, hopefully that adds context and understanding as to why I might find some useless breakers with my mapping. Continuing to work that as we 'speak'.
Happy St Patricks Day!
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BTW, I turned TED off last night and have had no erratic behavior since with lights automagically turning on. I still have a couple LEDs in my kitchen that aren't responding well, but I think, no relation.
So, I'm convinced that I need this filter installed.
That being said, lets's say I have TED installed across a 15/20........Do I simply install the filter in the same place? I don't get how the filter doesn't need to be between the breaker and the TED unit....
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BTW, I turned TED off last night and have had no erratic behavior since with lights automagically turning on. I still have a couple LEDs in my kitchen that aren't responding well, but I think, no relation.
So, I'm convinced that I need this filter installed.
That being said, lets's say I have TED installed across a 15/20........Do I simply install the filter in the same place? I don't get how the filter doesn't need to be between the breaker and the TED unit....
Unless the filter is a cap ( i.e. http://www.smarthome.com/4840/Leviton-In-Line-Noise-Reducer-6289/p.aspx ) it does go in series with the load.
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I am no TED5000 expert but have looked at the installation and troubleshooting manuals.
The MTU module in the breaker box sends power line signals on both phases. Black slightly stronger than the Red one.
The Gateway receives the signals from the MTU.
This constant 132KHz signal manytimes messes up X10 and Insteon power line communications.
Challenge here is.
You have to get the Gateway and MTU on the same branch circuit of the house and filter the MTU from the rest of the house. While allowing its signals to reach the Gateway.
If you put the filters {one on each phase Red and Black} between the MTU and the breakers. The gateway will not receive any data. Unless it is also on the same filtered branch line as the MTU is on. Filter would have to handle the rating of the branch line if connected that way.
Have you looked on the TED web site for ways others have done this?
Unfortunately there isn't too much there right now. Seems a major crash lost most of the posts including users solutions and fixes.
http://forums.theenergydetective.com/
http://forums.theenergydetective.com/index.php/topic,37.0.html
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Update: TED had a solution involving a filter on their site, in fact, they sell the x10 filter :-)
So, I've installed that per their directions. My real-time wattage on the TED seems a little light, but maybe its right. its supposed to be accurate within 2%.
I've mapped every switch, fixture, appliance and outlet back to a breaker/phase this weekend. My legs are killing me from running stairs! Next step: Organizing lights vs appliances vs sensors etc
I've had ONE light come on automagically, last night since the filter install. Could've been a kid turned it on before bed time, not sure. We'll see what the future holds.
Question: Can anyone tell me what switch to use for fluorescent lights, no neutral available? Its not a 3-way.
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You maybe out of luck for a fluorescent light and no neutral in the switch box. All the relay type switches need a neutral.
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I've had ONE light come on automagically,
"automagically" rofl
I love it...I may "borrow" it, that is just too good.
AFA the flourescent light. As Brian said all the switches for any non incandescent load requires a neutral. However could you use a wire-in Appliance Module (XPFM http://www.x10pro.com/pro/catalog/receivers.html#wire) at the flourescent fixture and a Slim-Line Switch for control?