X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: duffrecords on November 27, 2011, 11:58:02 PM
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I installed a WS467 wall switch with a Lights of America PAR38 dimmable LED flood light but I can't control it remotely. If I replace it with an incandescent, I can turn that on/off and dim it using my computer, so I know the WS467 can communicate with the CM15A that is sending the commands. If I put the LED bulb back in, I can turn it on or off and even dim it manually (so I know the WS467 is capable of dimming the LED), however, it will not respond to remote commands. Does anyone know of any modifications that would allow dimmable LEDs to work like this?
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Using a dimmable LED bulb with any X10 two wire switch can be a problem. Since the switch steals power through the load. The LEDs electronics is probably making too much noise or has some filtering in it that is killing the X10 signals.
Leviton makes some wire in filters and noise blockers. I don't have any personal experience with them, but others here may have ideas.
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I'm guessing you've tried BOTH "on" and "off" remotely?
You may have TWO issues at work here.
As Brian stated, the WS467 needs to steal power through the load. If the LED bulb doesn't allow that minimal current to pass through, the switch is "dead" with the light off, and won't hear any "on" commands.
When the light is on, the switch has power, so it *should* respond to the commands. However, if the LED bulb creates enough noise to block those signals, then the switch still cannot hear commands, so it can't turn off or dim.
Incandescent bulbs (which is what those switches were designed for) allow the small current to pass through them, thereby powering the switch when the light is off (it isn't REALLY off, it is dimmed so low that you can't see any light from it). They also don't (usually) generate enough noise to block or otherwise interfere with X10 signals.
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Yes, I tried using both on and off commands--it responded to neither. Another thing worth noting is that although I can dim/brighten the outdoor flood manually, it won't turn completely off unless I flip the disable switch at the bottom. I have a set of LED bulbs in another room that can be manually dimmed/brightened all the way on or off but the WS467 doesn't respond to remote commands in that case either.
Anyway, it's clear this combination isn't going to work. Is there an X10 wall switch that will dim LED bulbs? I do have a neutral available in the box; it's just capped with a wire nut and not in use at the moment.
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As far as I know, X10 doesn't make any switches that are specifically designed to work with dimmable CFL or LED bulbs.
Smarthome makes several different models (both in their Insteon line, and their newer "x10 only" line.
all of them require a neutral wire (which you said you have - so that isn't a problem).
I don't know if they can dim the dimmable LED or CFL bulbs all the way down, you may need to buy one to test it.
You will probably see different results with bulbs from another manufacturer (or even a different model bulb from the same manufacturer), but there is no way to know in advance *what* those results will be ("different" doesn't necessarily mean "better"). Some CFL or LED bulbs produce a lot of signal-blocking noise, while others don't.
I've also had CFL bulbs go bad on me (and my neighbor). They still lit up just fine, but would throw out enough noise as to cripple some or all of my setup.
Unfortunately, a lot of this may be trial-and-error until you find the right combination.
Another test you can do (to see if the LED bulbs are creating too much noise) would be to install one in a fixture or lamp that is NOT controlled by the X10 switch (but on the same circuit - or at least the same phase - if possible), and see if the X10 switch (with an incandescent bulb in the fixture) can still be controlled.
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Anyway, it's clear this combination isn't going to work. Is there an X10 wall switch that will dim LED bulbs? I do have a neutral available in the box; it's just capped with a wire nut and not in use at the moment.
Since it has a neutral connection, you might try the XPDI3. It does not rely on leakage current through the load to power it's internal electronics, so should not keep the LED lit in the OFF state. Although if your problem of controlling the LED bulb is due to noise being generated by the bulb when ON, the XPDI3 will not help with that. Like Noam said, you are dealing with two issues.
http://www.x10pro.com/pro/catalog/receivers.html#wire
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Another test you can do (to see if the LED bulbs are creating too much noise) would be to install one in a fixture or lamp that is NOT controlled by the X10 switch (but on the same circuit - or at least the same phase - if possible), and see if the X10 switch (with an incandescent bulb in the fixture) can still be controlled.
Both the WS467 switches I've installed are in the same junction box (and on the same circuit). One controls the outdoor flood, the other the living room ceiling fixture. I did a test last night, similar to what you described. I put an incandescent bulb in the outdoor light and left the pair of LEDs in the ceiling. I was able to remotely operate the incandescent but not the LEDs. So does that rule out noise?
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If the LEDs were ON at the time you were trying to control the other fixture, then they *probably* aren't producing enough noise to be a problem.
If they don't pass any current when off, then the WS467 is still not a workable solution for controlling them.
Is the bulb in the outdoor flood also a dimmable LED?
I'm guessing that it can't dim down all the way, because the lowest level of current that the WS467 was designed to pass through an incandescent bulb produces a lot more light in the LED bulb.
If you don't need these lights to dim, then I'd look into one of the "relay" type switches (that need a neutral wire).
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I have a few of the new X10 only Smarthome modules scheduled to arrive this Wednesday.
I expect to see how they work with AHP.
Did you want dimming or On Off? Toggle style or Decorator style switch?
X10 does make a Decorator style On Off only switch. The WS13A. Needs a Neutral power connection.
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Yes, the outdoor flood is a dimmable LED. I'd like them to dim/brighten because it makes the automation look more sophisticated. It adds more of the "wow" factor for guests. Toggle or Decora doesn't really matter to me. I think I'll test one of the XPDI3 switches and if that doesn't work, then it looks like a pair of WS13A switches will be the only solution.
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Yes, the outdoor flood is a dimmable LED. I'd like them to dim/brighten because it makes the automation look more sophisticated. It adds more of the "wow" factor for guests. Toggle or Decora doesn't really matter to me. I think I'll test one of the XPDI3 switches and if that doesn't work, then it looks like a pair of WS13A switches will be the only solution.
Duff, I'm curious if you have tried the XPDI3 module for your dimmable LED bulbs yet. I too have some dimmable LEDs (Phillips brand) that work great with my dimming lamp modules, but I am unable to control them via remote control through my current wall switch modules that do not have neutral wires.
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Yes, the XPDI3 modules work fine with LED bulb I mentioned in my first post, as well as some other 6W LED bulbs from PhotonLED.com that I'm using in my living room overhead fixture. The only drawback is if you dim it to a value between on and off, the light flickers. So I just use 100% on or 100% off. Thanks to dave w for the recommendation.
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Yes, the XPDI3 modules work fine with LED bulb I mentioned in my first post, as well as some other 6W LED bulbs from PhotonLED.com that I'm using in my living room overhead fixture. The only drawback is if you dim it to a value between on and off, the light flickers. So I just use 100% on or 100% off. Thanks to dave w for the recommendation.
You might want to consider some of the x10 compatible Insteon Dimmers from SmartHome. I currently use these with my x10 setup and they work awesome with the dimmable leds. The only draw back is they require a neutral wire in the switch box
>!
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I have been playing with a Philips EnduraLED bulb that first tests show do work with two wire X10 dimmers.
http://forums.x10.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=67l8soj6g8bncsk5bvohlgsq50&topic=25967.msg146236#new
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I recently bought 2 of the CREE 8.5 watt dimmable LEDs sold at Home Depot. I found that they work very well with my WS467 and WS12A X10 modules. I returned to Home Depot and bought 6 more. I have not had any problems with this LED controlled by my X10 system.
I also have a 5 meter LED light strip that is powered by 120 volts ac that I'm working on. The X10 WS467 module does not respond with this LED strip connected. However it works with a lamp module. Therefor I'm looking at using the WS467 or WS12A module modified with a neutral wire.
Don
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All led strip lights I have seen are DC with a wall wart or some other type of transformer. Therefor, if the one you have is te same, it will require a neutral line module.
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My LED strip is powered by full wave rectified 115 vac. The linearity of the dimming control is very different than that of an incandescent bulb. Even with the neutral wire added to the module, a very low current will still pass through the load due to the zero crossing detection circuit of the module (350ua for the WS12A). This may produce some low level lighting with the LED strip. I believe this low level illumination when the dimmer is "OFF" could be fixed by installing a 0.1 uf mylar, 200volt capacitor connected between the load and neutral wires. This should result in less than 10 vac applied to the LED strip when the dimmer is "OFF". The LED strip begins to increase illumination at around 50%.
The CREE 8.5 watt LED light bulb somehow avoids all of these problems and even works with all of my two wire X10 modules. I would have expected them to be unstable when dimmed due to the lack of sufficient holding current in the module's triac. Some day I want to look at the current and voltage on this bulb with my oscilloscope.
I plan to install the WS12A with the neutral wire and the 0.1 uf capacitor, as described, across LED strip today. I will post my results.
WS12A Schematic Attached
Don
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I have seen other good result posts for Cree LED Bulbs. With X10 and Insteon.
I have also seen a tear down the earlier Crees {not the TW series} with some data on the IC used for the dimming control.
I tried some on a test ZWave two wire dimmer switch and it was a 100% failure.
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An update on my project to use a WS12A X10 wall module to control a 5 meter 115 V.A.C. LED strip.
Modified the WS12A adding the neutral wire and a .22uf cap across the load (I didn't have a .1 uf on hand).
I could control the LED strip from the push button on the WS12A with no problems. Although I could turn the LEDs on via X10 command, once they were on, all other attempts to control the module via X10 commands failed.
The .22uf cap did allow the LEDs to fully extinguish when the module was switched off.
The LED strip is used in the living room as Home Theater accent lighting so the ability to dim the lighting is important.
I added a 20 watt ZENON lamp that is used to illuminate wall art to the load on the module.
This was enough load to solve the X10 command control issue. This means that the .22uf cap was no longer necessary but I didn't feel like opening up the module again to remove it.
Don
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Modified the WS12A adding the neutral wire and a .22uf cap across the load (I didn't have a .1 uf on hand).
I could control the LED strip from the push button on the WS12A with no problems. Although I could turn the LEDs on via X10 command, once they were on, all other attempts to control the module via X10 commands failed.
The .22uF capacitor represents just a 6 ohm load at 120KHz, which will severely load down X10 signals. That is why the switch does not respond once it has been turned on.
Jeff
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Hi Jeff,
Please look again at the schematic I posted. The .22uf cap does not shunt the 120Khz signal. The cap. is in parallel with the load (lamp) which is in series with the module and therefor does NOT kill the 120Khz signal. On a 2 wire module (no neutral) the 120Khz signal arrives on the hot (black) wire and is coupled to the receiver via the .68uf capacitor and returns to neutral via the load (lamp) In a module modified with a neutral wire modification, the signal path returns via the white wire instead of through the load. On an unmodified module with loads that present a high impedance, both the power supply current and the 120Khz signal current are limited and may prevent X10 commands from functioning properly. The purpose of the .22uf cap on this module that I modified by adding a neutral wire was to shunt the current that passes through the LED strip light via the 330K resistor in the X10 module to detect the zero crossing. The .22uf cap. prevents the LEDs from glowing when the module is "OFF".
My only concern in adding the .22uf cap. was the effect it might have on the triac's di/dt when triggered.
Also the .22uf cap. never loads the LINE to Neutral at zero crossing because the triac is never on during zero crossing. The triac is gated several degrees after the zero crossing of the line voltage.
By the way, the module with the .22uf cap. and all other modules in the room work fine after adding the 20 watt load in parallel with the LED light strip.
Don
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I understand where the cap is. Whether the cap loads down the X10 signal depends on whether the triac is conducting at that point. One thing I did ignore was the series inductor. 47uH makes a series resonant circuit with a notch at about 50KHz. Loading at 120KHz would be dependent on the Q of the network. If you were using a relay wall switch, the capacitor would certainly attenuate the X10 signal level when on.
Out of curiosity I set up the circuit myself (without the LEDs) using both a wall switch and lamp module for comparison. I connected a .22uF capacitor directly to the output, and monitored the line with both a scope and XTBM. The problem was not decreased signal level, but a large spike when the triac turned on that set up ringing in the LC network. It saturated the XTBM noise reading at .99Vpp when near full brightness on the dimmer, but dropped to the normal level of .02Vpp as the "light" was dimmed and the transient moved out of the X10 transmit window. The first cycle of the transient was over 5Vpp on my scope.
Something else to consider is whether your light strip includes any "electronics". One that I have just includes dropping resistors, but if yours has a switching regulator it could also be generating noise when on.
Jeff
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I briefly considered the resonance of the 47uh inductor and the .22uf capacitor. The impedance of the capacitor at 60 Hz was the factor that prevents the LEDs from glowing when the X10 module is "OFF". Maybe I should have placed a resistor in series with the .22uf cap. to spoil the Q of the circuit and reduce the di/dt when the triac turns on. I may modify a second WS12A module for additional bench testing. Development testing in the living room is frowned on.
The LED strip is made up of 1 meter sections powered from a small adapter inline with the power cord. I don't know if the adapter has switching electronics inside. I suspect it is nothing more than a bridge rectifier. I need to open it up to find out.
The LED strip does flicker a bit when dimmed to the lower light levels. I have considered designing my own dimmer that would respond to the X10 controls and control the LEDs by way of a PWM MOSFET switching regulator running at around 10-20 Khz. One way would be to use an X10 module chip and integrate the phase delay output and use this variable to control the PWM. This could eliminate any 120 Hz component and/or flickering from the light output.
LED strip lighting seams to be the way forward in efficient lighting. I was at a new Kaiser Permanente facility today and the building looks to be 100% LED lighting, mostly strip lights.
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I opened the adapter on the LED strip light. As I expected it is nothing more than a bridge rectifier.
I removed the .22uf cap. from the WS12A that I had previously connected across the load. The X10 module control did not change.
Without the 20 watt zenon lamp, the module would respond to the X10 ON command but would not respond to an OFF or DIM command.
With the 20 watt connected in parallel with the LED strip light, all X10 commands work fine.
I'm thinking that the low current through the triac is resulting in zero crossing timing errors in the chip when the triac turns off early at the end of each half cycle due to a lack of holding current in the triac. I will see what happens if I move the 330K resistor, connected to the triac/inductor to neutral thereby providing a zero crossing signal regardless of the state of the triac.
The mystery is, what does CREE do to avoid the same problem with their 115 volt 8.5 watt LED lamps?
Maybe I need to open up one of the CREE lamps to see what chip they use.
Any tear-down information on the CREE product would be appreciated.
Don
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http://www.designingwithleds.com/cree-60w-led-replacement-bulb-review-and-tear-down/
http://www.designingwithleds.com/qa-with-cree-about-60w-replacement-led-bulb/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6DDFRBrSas&list=UUqp2_p4YjtaTKiHuNZv0mAQ&index=49
Yes the baking the bulb mentioned in the first link does work. ;D
I have not seen a tear down of the newer 8.5 Watt and 13.5 Watt TW Cree LED Bulbs.
The 5000K 60 watt ones are similar but they get the 800 Lumens from one row of LEDs against two rows in the 2700K ones.
The original 40 watt 2700K also used one row of LEDs.
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PROBLEM SOLVED: DIMMING LED LIGHT STRIP WITH A WS12A
Adding a 120K resistor in parallel with the LED on my WS12A module that I modified with the neutral wire solved the problem.
It looks like my theory on zero crossing detection errors was correct.
I first tried connecting the 330K resistor to neutral. That did not work at all. The module would not turn on from either the push button or via X10 commands. I then reconnected the 330K resistor to it's original configuration and added a 120K 1/2 watt resistor from neutral to the blue wire. This is the same location where I had previously connected the .22uf cap. This, my latest configuration, does not have the .22uf cap.
The problem occurs when the load is non-linear, meaning that the load does not draw any current at lower voltages found near zero crossing.
The triac stops conducting due to the current being below the holding current. This leaves the zero crossing sense resistor connected to a floating connection and without the zero crossing timing applied to the chip, the control chip fails to detect the X10 commands.
With the 120K resistor connected, no additional loading is required. The LED strip light is now controllable via X10 commands.
The maximum power dissipation of the 120K resistor is 1/8 watt, however a 1/2 resistor is recommended due to the voltage rating of resistors.
I believe this explains why the CREE LED lamps work. However, I have found that the CREE will even work with the 2 wire modules.
I will update the WS12A schematic that I posted with this latest configuration and re-post it.
Don
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Glad you found a solution to the problem.
I have had good luck with Cree bulbs and X10 modules also.
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Here is the revised schematic of my modified WS12A module.
Note that the modification may not work on shorter length light strips (less than 5 meters).
The concern is with the triac's holding current.
Don
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Where the Cree Teardown links I found, any help?
I know they give an IC part number for the driver and Power FET used.
From what I can tell. The TW versions look basically the same as the originals construction wise. Probably different LEDs, components to get the proper drive current and the rare earth element in the glass shell.
If you decide to take one apart. The bake in the oven thing should work.
I would also like to know what you found if the disassembly is done by you.
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Thanks for the teardown links. They have a lot of good information on the CREE lamps and the technology in general.
The lamps are designed to provide a constant level of light over a wide range of voltages yet respond to the dimmers.
On the other hand, my LED light strip does not have any electronics other than a bridge rectifier, some series resistors, and the LEDs.
The lack of any switch mode electronics means that it will not radiate RF interference. Of coarse the power factor of the CREE lamps
is probably better than that of the LED strip light which draws all of the load current during the peak period on the sine wave.
As soon as any light is dimmed by phase delay, as in the X10 dimmers, the power factor will get worse.
I have a Kill-A-Watt meter that I could use to confirm this, however my main interest is in saving on the light bill while maintaining the
ability to use my X10 system.
Don
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I also use the cree lights from home depot with very good success. I use the 40 watt and 60watt ones that look like regular bulbs. I did purchase some of the home depot brand commercial electric leds with the rim on them to replace the old can lights i have that use 65 watt floods. These did not work. They stayed on dimly after the light switch (ws467) was turned off. I couldnt find a cree made replacement bulb that was like this design. So I ended up buying the cree 65watt flood light and used my old canisters in the ceiling and these work perfectly also. Something about the CREE made bulbs just seems to work very nicely with X10.
Just wanted to post about the CREE's also because others should know of their reliability and function with X10.
Hope this is helpful to some and I will continue to try other lights as I can.
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Thank you for posting your findings.
Do you know if the Cree bulbs where the original design Filament Tower, High CRI TW Series or the new 4Flow series in the very light weight plastic shells?
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I also have used the Cree bulbs and have quite a few. I really like everything about them except for one thing: When dimmed by any type of dimmer, whether X10 or manual dimmers, they emit a slight humming buzzing sound. It's not very loud but where it has bothered me has been where there are several of them together being dimmed, such as in a chandelier. When you dim a bunch of them together, the humming gets loud enough to be annoying to my ears.
What I have done is use the Phillips LED's in dimming of chandelier type situations. They emit pretty close to zero noise when dimmed. These are the bulbs I am referring to:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-60W-Equivalent-Soft-White-2700K-A19-Dimmable-LED-Light-Bulb-E-424382/203553310?AID=11210757&PID=6157500&SID=1sgsoa8is14fr&cm_mmc=CJ-_-6157500-_-11210757&cj=true
As least as far as the Phillips and Cree LED's go, I found this article to be quite accurate: http://www.cnet.com/news/which-led-light-bulbs-are-best-for-dimming
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i know they are not the 4flow design, but I am not sure if they are the first or second versions. They come in a blue package and i can't seem to be able to find a model number. The lower dimming does generate a slight buzz and like the previous post could be a problem with many on at the same time. This however is not my situation so i am not sure how it would affect me.
I did rig up a ws467 to a power strip with a socket that i can try different bulbs. My biggest problem was making sure they turn on and off both manually and remotely and no slight dim or flicker when off.
The Cree seems to fit my needs.
The G.E. LED10DR30V /827S flood light from walmart also seems to function to my needs also. I forgot I had one of these installed in a different non X-10 fixture. So I tried it this morning in my rigged socket and it works too.
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The test setup sounds like a good way to test varied brands and models.
The original Crees are still made and I would imagine what is sold the most. They frequently also qualify for Energy Incentives.
The TWs look almost identical but have a more expensive glass shell. To modify the light output for a higher Color Renditioning Index.
All the packages seem to be of the blue cardboard.
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I will say they are the old ones then. They have a rubberized coating on the bulb and have a plastic shell around the base of glass and the threads for the socket. I have seen the ones that look very much like a regular bulb without the plastic and the glass seems different.
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Well next update to the cree family led bulbs. I just tried a old style 100watt equivalent cree bulb with rubberized globe and white plastic base. Both the soft white and daylight bulbs do not function with the ws467. after turning it off it continues to glow dimly. I also tried the cree 60watt daylight 4filament new style without the plastic base and it also stays on dimly.
So far.
home depot consumer electric brand recess lighting 65watt replacement--No good
home depot cree original 40watt rubberized bulb with white plastic base-- Good
"" cree 60watt --Good
"" cree 4Flow new style 60watt daylight no plastic base just plastic bulb--No Good
"" "" 65watt flood light soft white --Good
Hope this helps others.