X10 Community Forum

🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: bkenobi on December 28, 2015, 10:47:41 PM

Title: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-2677B) low signal strength
Post by: bkenobi on December 28, 2015, 10:47:41 PM

I have one of these old Radio Shack controllers that the previous owner left in my shop.  It's worked fine for me for over 5 years until tonight.  It can now only send commands to the one module in the shop but cannot control modules at the house.  My XTBM indicates 0.19-0.27 signal strengthwhen plugged into the same outlet.  I have a XTB-IIR in the main panel location around 200 feet away but I get no repeat meaning that the signal is too weak for the repeater to properly detect the command.  I get the response from the repeater when I plug in the XTBM at 4.50, so that's not the issue.

Is there anything that can be done to easily and/or affordably repair the signal or should I look for a replacement?  I assume the best direct replacement is the Mini controller MC10A.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-26778) low signal strength
Post by: toasterking on December 28, 2015, 11:17:48 PM

I am not sure, but I think you may be referring to the 61-2677C which appears equivalent to the X10 MC460 Mini Controller.  I had an MC460 stop transmitting entirely.  The procedure on this page (scroll down to "Fixing the Mini Controller") fixed it for me:
https://www.idobartana.com/idobartana/hakb/modifying_mini_controller.htm (https://www.idobartana.com/idobartana/hakb/modifying_mini_controller.htm)
FWIW, my unit wasn't working at all at the time I performed the repair, and the LED stayed on solid even though no button was being pressed and nothing was being transmitted.  It may not be the same failure as yours.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-26778) low signal strength
Post by: bkenobi on December 28, 2015, 11:39:35 PM

I pulled the cover off and noticed the black heat damage shown in the link.  My first thought was that these were likely the culprit.  The link you provided confirms that suspicion so I'll try replacing the diodes.  Thanks!

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-26778) low signal strength
Post by: Brian H on December 29, 2015, 06:46:31 AM

I would also replace the power supply capacitors. They tend to dry out and not work as well, with age.

I had an RR501 where the PCB was dark brown and the solder has started to get crusty around the Zenner Diode in the power supply.
I replaced it with two in series. Each half the voltage and same wattage as the original. I also changed the main filter capacitor for goo measure.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-26778) low signal strength
Post by: bkenobi on December 29, 2015, 06:53:46 AM

I can do that. Do you have a part number for them?  I can see one is 2.2K 250VCMC But the other 2 are not visible.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-26778) low signal strength
Post by: bkenobi on December 29, 2015, 08:59:42 PM

 I replaced the 2 diodes but saw no improvement. I see 3 large blue components but only 1 appears to be a capacitor to me.  The cap next to the adjustment screw is marked 1000uf 25v. The large component on the other side is labeled 2.2K 250VCMC. The smaller component below that one and next to the other adjustment screw is labeled .22K 250VC(M?).  Which ones should I source?

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-26778) low signal strength
Post by: Brian H on December 30, 2015, 06:31:00 AM

The 2.2K is used to limit the current into the power supply. The .22K is most likely the X10 signal coupling to and from the power line.
Both look like a Mylar type. I would say they didn't have to be changed. Dave may have a better handle on them going bad.

Now the 1000uf/25 volt is an electrolytic capacitor and is subject to drying out and deteriorating. That one should be changed. As it is the main filter capacitor for the power supply.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-26778) low signal strength
Post by: dhouston on December 30, 2015, 09:44:58 AM

While X10 may have used a slightly different design, this PDF explains transformerless power supplies with example schematics.
ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/AppNotes/00954A.pdf (http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/AppNotes/00954A.pdf)

As Brian suggested, the large mylar cap is likely part of the power supply while the electrolytic is the storage cap shown in the capacitive supply example. I don't believe mylar caps fail with age in the way cheap electrolytics do.

One of the diodes was likely a zener - if it blew it would likely take out other components. I'm clueless as to a likely value but the PL513/TW523 schematics might have similar power supplies.
tinymicros.com/mediawiki/images/1/1d/X10_Protocol_Technical_Note.pdf (http://tinymicros.com/mediawiki/images/1/1d/X10_Protocol_Technical_Note.pdf)

Could this be a 61-2677B? RadioShack used to have manuals, parts lists, schematics, etc. online but now that they've gone the way of X10, I've no idea whether anything might still be available.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-26778) low signal strength
Post by: bkenobi on December 30, 2015, 11:49:51 AM

I removed the electrolytic cap and tested it.  No capacitance at all.  I checked the polarity and same result. Just to be safe, I tested a good cap and the meter works fine so I'll see if Radio Shack caries basic supplies these days.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-26778) low signal strength
Post by: bkenobi on December 30, 2015, 03:39:22 PM

Radio Shack didn't have exactly the same capacitor, but they had one that should work from what I've read.  The original cap is 1000uF 25v but Radio Shack only has a 1000uF 35v which is rated at a higher voltage so should work I believe.  However, I tested the cap prior to installation and my DMM indicated no capacitance.  I tested a few other electrolytic caps in my supply box and they all reported the correct capacitance.  Is it possible RS sold a dead cap or is there something I'm doing wrong testing?

In any case, I installed the cap and the module still produced 0.14 signal strength.  I don't know if reporting no capacitance means open connection or no connectivity.  I removed the cap and tried sending a signal briefly and found it had zero signal, so clearly the cap does something.

So should I source another cap or look at something else?  Maybe one of the components is a fuse that's blown?  I don't see anything that looks like a fuse to me, but I'm used to the replaceable glass type.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-26778) low signal strength
Post by: Brian H on December 30, 2015, 04:25:21 PM

In your photo.
To the left of the two diodes. It looks like a coil. You may want to check its resistance as some X10 power line supplies had a coil in series with the line.
Also just above the diodes and below the small tuning can. There is a small capacitor. It has gunk on it but it maybe just some glue. If its side is blown out. It may have failed.

Yes a 1000uf 35V is fine. As long as it was not physically too large to fit correctly.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-26778) low signal strength
Post by: bkenobi on December 30, 2015, 04:44:53 PM

The new 1000uF cap is identical size.

I'll check those other two items.  They were the two I was eyeing but didn't know what they were.  I'll see if I can find any markings.  Since they are easy to remove I may just pull them to see if the markings are hidden and/or perhaps locate some hidden damage.

Any thoughts on the new cap not indicating capacitance with my DMM when tested?  Seems like a problem to me.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-26778) low signal strength
Post by: bkenobi on December 30, 2015, 05:25:52 PM

The cap next to the tuner is marked 152J 250. I tested it and the meter reports 1.65nF capacitance.  The beige component (coil) has no markings and no visible damage. It has continuity but I don't know how else to test it.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-26778) low signal strength
Post by: Brian H on December 30, 2015, 06:27:55 PM

152J 250 is a 1.5nF capacitor. A 1.65nF is probably some added offset in the meter. Mine at that low a capacitance has some residual level even when not connected to anything.

The coil is probably OK also.
 
No capacitance reading on the new capacitor is suspicious. Unless your meter can't read 1000uF and is over range. Though most meters will give an out of range indication.

Can you safely measure the DC voltage across the 1000uF/35V capacitor when the unit is powered up?

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-26778) low signal strength
Post by: bkenobi on December 30, 2015, 07:27:01 PM

I pulled the cap and am going to exchange it.  If the new one doesn't register capacitance on the meter, I'll check voltage.   I'd be surprised if it couldn't measure 100uF since I've tested caps in the nF to MF range before.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-26778) low signal strength
Post by: bkenobi on December 30, 2015, 09:14:35 PM

A little correction.  I thought I had measured caps in the nF to MF range, but that was wrong.  I found the cap that I measured and it was a mF not MF.  I then checked the manual for my meter and it confirmed that I can read 40nF to 100uF range.  The manual doesn't explicitly state the maximum value so I don't know how much above 100uF (if any) I can measure.

I went to RS and confirmed that all 4 caps in stock were not readable by my meter so I don't know if the original was bad or not, but it I replaced it anyway.

As for the voltage across the cap, I measure 18.5VDC.  So it appears the new diodes are working correctly.  Any other thoughts?

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-26778) low signal strength
Post by: Brian H on December 31, 2015, 03:02:46 PM

On a X10 controller that was probably old. Changing the capacitor was a good move. I always change the power supply capacitors whan working on an X10 or Insteon Module.
18.5 volts looks about right for the X10 modules I have measured or seen schematics of. Some used a slightly lower voltage some a higher voltage.
The revised Appliance and Lamp Modules with the new manufacturers surface mounted transistors. Have about a 3.5 volt supply.

I will think on your very low output. My next thought maybe the power line transmitter having a bad part.
X10 used a common part number power transistor in many of their controllers power line output transistror. See if you have a 2SD667A transistor in it.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-26778) low signal strength
Post by: bkenobi on December 31, 2015, 05:15:55 PM

I pulled the transistor next to the LED and found the part number.

Code: [Select]

D677
A  C
2F 4
It's clearly a D667 transistor but appears to be a different model number than you posted.  I tried to locate a datasheet on this one but came up empty.  I found a datasheet for the transistor you indicated (2SD667A) which includes a test procedure.  I'll try that and see if I can determine it's bad.  If so, I'm not sure where to source one of these from (either the direct replacement or your model number).

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-26778) low signal strength
Post by: Brian H on December 31, 2015, 05:49:42 PM

The added characters on the transistor are things like Date or Manufacturers Codes. The SD is the parts prefix.  Most times the SD is not on the transistor. Just the base number.
I got the number from one of the X10 schematics and maybe different than the one in your controller

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-26778) low signal strength
Post by: bkenobi on December 31, 2015, 05:58:39 PM

Ahh ok.  I found a couple test procedures (one from the datasheet, the other from vetco.net).  I'll test it and replace it if bad.  Vetco and Fry's both carry them and are both local so I could potentially pick them up when I have time to drive to the store.  Too bad Radio Shack doesn't sell parts anymore...

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-26778) low signal strength
Post by: bkenobi on December 31, 2015, 06:46:39 PM

I used the datasheet from here for the 2SD667A:
http://www.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/pdf/63046/HITACHI/2SD667A.html

The emitter, collector base configuration was used based on page 1.  My meter indicates it provides 1.25V max.

Code: [Select]

E-C L
E-B L
C-E L
C-B L
B-E .624
B-C .621
So, according to the Vetco guide, the NPN transistor is good.  I wasn't clear on the test values for the datasheet tests.

http://www.vetco.net/blog/?p=184

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-26778) low signal strength
Post by: Brian H on December 31, 2015, 07:05:55 PM

Was the transistor out of the circuit? If not try it out of circuit.

Emitter to Collector Low and Collector to Emitter Low. Is a shorted transistor.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-26778) low signal strength
Post by: bkenobi on December 31, 2015, 07:10:05 PM

Yes, I removed the transistor.  So you think the transistor is bad?  I can try to pick one up tomorrow if the store is open.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-26778) low signal strength
Post by: Brian H on December 31, 2015, 07:18:54 PM

A low resistance reading between the Collector and Emitter in both directions of the probes. Is a shorted transistor.
You may find a low value resistor in the Emitter circuit that has burned open or the output transformer burned open.

You may get a similar schematic of the CP-290 from here. Page 3 of the zip file is the X10 transmitter area.
Use the back up choice for the CP-290 as Idobartina's site is not there anymore.
http://www.edcheung.com/automa/circuit.htm

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-26778) low signal strength
Post by: bkenobi on December 31, 2015, 07:26:35 PM

Ok, I'll get a new one.  NTE382 is listed as a substitute and is available locally.  I'll give it a try tomorrow hopefully.

Happy new year!

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-26778) low signal strength
Post by: bkenobi on January 01, 2016, 02:08:41 PM

Vetco isn't answering their phone so I guess they aren't open today.  Not surprised but unfortunate.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-26778) low signal strength
Post by: bkenobi on January 03, 2016, 11:13:21 AM

I was able to stop by Fry's yesterday and picked up a new transistor.  Prior to installation, I tested using the same procedure as before.  I was surprised to see exactly the same results as the old transistor, so I retested it too.

Code: [Select]

Test  Pin   Old   New
E-C   1-2   L     L
E-B   1-3   L     L
C-E   2-1   L     L
C-B   2-3   L     L
B-E   3-1  .618  .625
B-C   3-2  .615  .623
I installed the new transistor anyway.  After reassembly, the output signal is exactly the same (0.15).  The only other components that are left at this point are resistors, diodes, and a few ceramic capacitors.  Seems the logic side works, so it must be a power side issue though.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-26778) low signal strength
Post by: Brian H on January 03, 2016, 12:56:06 PM

I will go back over the whole thread and see if I can think of anything more.
I am very puzzled by your ohmmeter readings. E-C and C-E should not be a low resistance.

You may want to check the voltage from the Collector to the Emitter when it is not transmitting.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-26778) low signal strength
Post by: bkenobi on January 03, 2016, 02:22:27 PM

Code: [Select]

E-C  18.61
E-B  0
C-B  18.61

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-26778) low signal strength
Post by: Brian H on January 04, 2016, 07:07:00 AM

Can you verify that you posted the correct part number. Maybe it is a 61-2677B or 61-2677C. If so it is an X10 MC460 Mini Controller and I have a schematic of a MC460.
The E to C voltage would indicate it is not shorted.
The meter you used to measure the transistor out of circuit. Was it a digital or analog meter type?

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-26778) low signal strength
Post by: bkenobi on January 04, 2016, 10:53:55 AM

I'll take a look tonight to confirm the model number.  It looks just like 61-2677B based on the images on google.

The meter is a pretty nice digital Craftsman unit with a thermocouple and serial connector.  I doubt it's as good as a Fluke, but it's done everything I've asked of it to date (other than measure capacitance of 1000uF).  I think it's this one but I'll confirm tonight (Craftsman 82357):

http://tinyurl.com/j8ajgfe

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-26778) low signal strength
Post by: bkenobi on January 04, 2016, 10:59:31 AM

Oh, and I never thought about it but perhaps it could be useful information.  The red LED does not light up when transmitting anymore.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-26778) low signal strength
Post by: Brian H on January 04, 2016, 02:28:34 PM

OK I will look at the prints I have. For the MC460
I may have been confused. As your thread title says 61-26778

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-26778) low signal strength
Post by: bkenobi on January 04, 2016, 02:40:00 PM

Yeah, I'm sure it's a "B" not an "8" at this point based on pictures that I've found online (and the fact that I can't find anything for "8").  The controller is a little dusty from sitting in the shop for years so it's not that easy to read which is most likely why I wrote down the wrong number.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-26778) low signal strength
Post by: bkenobi on January 04, 2016, 07:55:24 PM

I can confirm that the correct model number is 6-2677B.  The DMM model number is 82357.

Also, I was wrong about the LED.  It does illuminate during PLC transmission as it should.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-26778) low signal strength
Post by: dhouston on January 04, 2016, 08:03:07 PM

Quote from: bkenobi on January 04, 2016, 02:40:00 PM

...it's not that easy to read which is most likely why I wrote down the wrong number.

It's probably a common problem as most online listings use 61-2677b, likely to avoid confusion.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-2677B) low signal strength
Post by: Brian H on January 05, 2016, 07:09:54 AM

Thanks for the updates.
I will look at the MC460 schematics as I have seen some references to it from a RS part number.
The Red LED working is a good thing. It is driven from a controller chip output pin through a resister. If it was out. May have indicated a bad controller or LED itself.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-2677B) low signal strength
Post by: Brian H on January 05, 2016, 01:10:39 PM

There isn't much left in the power line transmitter circuit. If it matches the MC-460.
There is are two resistors on the Base. R8 4.7K to the controller chip and R7 1.5K to common ground.
Emitter R6 10 Ohms to common ground.
D6 68 volt zener diode from the Collector to ground.
T1 coupling and oscillator transformer for the 120KHz power line signal.
C3 {.22K smaller of the two Mylar Caps} couples the 120KHz to the power line.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-2677B) low signal strength
Post by: dhouston on January 05, 2016, 01:43:03 PM

Quote from: Brian H on January 05, 2016, 01:10:39 PM

D6 68 volt zener diode from the Collector to ground.

D1 gets my vote.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-2677B) low signal strength
Post by: bkenobi on January 05, 2016, 02:20:54 PM

Aren't D1 and D2 the diodes I originally replaced?  One of them was 18V.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-2677B) low signal strength
Post by: dhouston on January 05, 2016, 02:47:09 PM

Quote from: bkenobi on January 05, 2016, 02:20:54 PM

Aren't D1 and D2 the diodes I originally replaced?  One of them was 18V.

OK - I didn't recall you mentioning replacing any zeners.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-2677B) low signal strength
Post by: Brian H on January 05, 2016, 05:52:55 PM

D1 and D2 are in the power supply. They are most likely the ones you changed. D1 is the 18 volt zener.

D6 is in the power line transmitter and is 68 volts. If it is turning on at too low a voltage. It may lower the transmitted signal.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-2677B) low signal strength
Post by: bkenobi on January 05, 2016, 05:56:21 PM

Which one is that?  I can pull it and test it to see if it's working.  Or, according to Google, I can just measure the voltage across it to verify it's correct (68v I assume).

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-2677B) low signal strength
Post by: Brian H on January 05, 2016, 06:34:38 PM

It is used to suppress high voltage spikes from the transmit transformer. When the power line transmitter is sending data.
It is connected to the same PCB run as the collector of the transistor.
It will have 18 volts on it through the windings of the transformer when not sending any commands.
Check the 10 Ohm resistor on the emitter. Along with the 1.5k and 4.7K resistors on the base.
Though they are not prone to failure. The .22K blue Mylar capacitor may also be bad. It puts the X10 command on the power lines.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-2677B) low signal strength
Post by: Brian H on January 05, 2016, 07:01:37 PM

One big point. It has a power line derived power supply.
The 120 volt line connection is on some of the PCB runs and power supply voltages.
So extreme caution has to be used. Anytime a live readings are being taken.
A line voltage isolation transformer is best to be used but not usually in most users equipment list.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-2677B) low signal strength
Post by: bkenobi on January 06, 2016, 10:20:54 AM

I tested all the components and am compiling something to show what's what.  At a high level, I have 3 questions/concerns.

1) R4 is a 1.5k ohm resistor but when I tested it (installed) it showed 10 ohm.  This could be due to the test finding a lower resistance path, so I'm not overly worried about this.  I may pull this resistor to test it isolated.
2) R3 is a 330k ohm 1/2W resistor and tests to 328k ohm.  However, it took quite a while (~30 seconds) for it to work its way up to the full resistance.  I don't know if that's a problem or not.
3) The schematic shows 8 capacitors but I only count 7 on the controller.  I can't seem to locate C1 which is marked "220p Line Rated".

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-2677B) low signal strength
Post by: Brian H on January 06, 2016, 12:53:43 PM

1) Your meter is probably turning the E to B junction on and you are reading the 10 Ohm R6

2) 330K R3. The meter has a few paths to capacitors including the 1000uF 25 volt main power supply one. So until the capacitors charge the readings will slowly rise. 328K is well with in tolerance and is part of the zero crossing detector. Used for signal timing.

3) I will see what I can find out. I maybe able to spot it in one of your photos. It may not even be in your unit. C1 is to keep real high frequency noise and RF from getting into it or back out to the power lines as noise.
 

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-2677B) low signal strength
Post by: bkenobi on January 06, 2016, 12:54:53 PM

This table shows all components, their markings, correct and measured values, whether I isolated them or tested in circuit, and whether it is considered good or not.

Component	Part Number	Correct value	Actual value	Isolated?	Good?
C1	220p Line Rated	220pF			where is this located?
C2	2u2 MY (mylar)	2.2uF	2.25uF	yes	yes
C3	220n MY (mylar)	220nF	214.8nF	yes	yes
C4	100p (100)	10pF	.25nF	no	bad?
C5	1000u 25V		could not measure	yes	replaced
C6	1n5 PP	1.5nF	1.63nF (from memory)	yes	yes
C7	2n2 CD (222)	2.2nF	2.54nF	no	yes
C8	220p CD	220pF	10.81nF	no	bad?
D1	BZX85C18 18V 1W			yes	replaced
D2	1N4002			yes	replaced
D3	1N4148			no	yes
D4	1N4148			no	yes
D5	1N4148			no	yes
D6	zPY68	18V	18.34V when not transmitting (0.591V/0L)	yes	yes
D7	red transmit			no	yes
F1	fuse wire	0	0	no	yes
L1	150u			yes	yes? No way to test
Q1	2SD667			yes	replaced
R1	3k3	3.3k	3.3k	no	yes
R2	22 1/2W	22	24	no	yes
R3	330k 1/2W	330k	329	no	yes? Takes a long time to get up to full resistance
R4	1k5	1.5k	10	no	no?
R5	1M	1M	0.998M	no	yes
R6	10	10	9.9	no	yes
R7	1k5	1.5k	1.483k	no	yes
R8	4k7	4.72k	4.72k	no	yes
R9	3k3	3.3k	3.3k	no	yes

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-2677B) low signal strength
Post by: bkenobi on January 06, 2016, 01:02:34 PM

I took a couple pictures this morning thinking I might be able to use them for diagnostics.  The component side isn't as clear as I hoped, but I think they are still useful.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-2677B) low signal strength
Post by: Brian H on January 06, 2016, 06:22:16 PM

Not sure but check the back side. Near the red LED. It is either some flux or a solder short between two runs. I believe the small adjustable transformer is on the component side where I may have seen what looks like a solder speck.

Your meter may have enough voltage on the test probes to turn the E-B junction On and you are reading R6 when you are trying to read R4 or the possible solder blob on the back is messing things up.

I didn't see the 220P capacitor in the photos. X10 most likely didn't use one in that model. As the RS Unit may not be exactly like the MC460.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-2677B) low signal strength
Post by: bkenobi on January 06, 2016, 07:08:58 PM

I used a solder remover so it's possible I got careless when blowing the removed solder out and sprayed the board.  I'll look it over and see if that could be the culprit.  Where on the picture did you see the area of concern?  I'll check everything closely this evening, but might as well double check that area.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-2677B) low signal strength
Post by: dhouston on January 06, 2016, 07:43:50 PM

Quote from: Brian H on January 06, 2016, 06:22:16 PM

I didn't see the 220P capacitor in the photos. X10 most likely didn't use one in that model.

And its absence would not explain the current problem.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-2677B) low signal strength
Post by: bkenobi on January 07, 2016, 12:06:28 AM

I used a magnifying glass and located a few small specs of solder and removed them.  No change.

I pulled R3 and R4 to measure them isolated.  Both check good though R3 still takes a long tome to reach full resistance.

I clipped the legs off Q1 since I hadn't done it before, but since it didn't interfere with anything it wasn't a big deal.

I also checked the original diodes that were replaced first (D1 and D2).  They both tested good, but the one I installed for D2 was a 1N4002 while the original was a 1N4004.  I'm not sure that matters though.  Also, I'm 99% sure they are oriented correctly but suppose one or both could have bseen reversed.  Any thougts on the correct orientation?  I believe the line should be on the side the arrow points in the schematic, right?

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-2677B) low signal strength
Post by: dhouston on January 07, 2016, 06:37:46 AM

Quote from: bkenobi on January 07, 2016, 12:06:28 AM

...R3 still takes a long tome to reach full resistance.

That's odd. I'd replace it if I had another on hand.

Quote

Any thougts on the correct orientation?  I believe the line should be on the side the arrow points in the schematic, right?

Right.
(http://www.electronicshub.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Diode-Terminal-Identification.jpg)

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-2677B) low signal strength
Post by: Brian H on January 07, 2016, 06:45:06 AM

1N4002 is only a 100 volt diode. 1N4004 is a 400 volt diode. I would try and find a IN4004 through 1N4007 diode.
http://www.diodes.com/_files/datasheets/ds28002.pdf

I thought you where having issues reading R7 the 1.5K resistor.
R3 330K taking a long time to read correctly. How long? A real long time maybe the meter taking a long time to stabilize or the resistor is defective.
You are not holding the meter probes with your fingers on the resistor leads? Meter maybe reading you skin resistance.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-2677B) low signal strength
Post by: bkenobi on January 07, 2016, 08:17:57 AM

Vetco actually sold me one 1N4002 and one 1N4005 by mistake so I can swap the other one in.

I pulled R3 and R4 and measured them with alligator clamps on the probes.  R4 was the one that was reading 10 ohm and it read correctly isolated.  I don't have another 330 ohm 1/2W resistor but could probably find one at some point.  My meter takes 2-3 seconds to read a small resistor and over 10 seconds for these 1/2W ones.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-2677B) low signal strength
Post by: Brian H on January 07, 2016, 09:09:50 AM

R3 is 330K not 330 Ohms. Red Red Yellow.
Could be your meter just takes a fairly long time to calculate its readings. If most all of them take awhile for the display to read steady.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-2677B) low signal strength
Post by: bkenobi on January 07, 2016, 08:36:19 PM

Correct, a little typo in missing "k".

I found something interesting this afternoon.  I plugged the controller into the XTB-IIR booster port and sent a command. I had my XTBM plugged in at the nearest outlet and saw no PLC commands.  I moved the controller to the same outlet and sent signals.  I saw signals in the range of 0.00-0.03.  If I test at my bench I see 0.17-0.20.  I have no explanation at this point.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-2677B) low signal strength
Post by: JeffVolp on January 08, 2016, 11:00:51 AM

This has been revised after thinking about it further.

The XTB-IIR requires about 2Vpp on the X10 Boost input to trigger its high power transmitter.  So the output from your controller was not enough for the XTB-IIR to recognize.

I suggest isolating an ordinary power strip with an XPPF filter to eliminate any possibility of a signal sucker, and then measure the output of your controller when plugged into that isolated power strip.  You can confirm the controller is defective by comparing with another transmitter.

Jeff

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-2677B) low signal strength
Post by: bkenobi on January 08, 2016, 01:08:08 PM

I'll give that a try!

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-2677B) low signal strength
Post by: dave w on January 08, 2016, 05:56:47 PM

bkenobi,

I assume this has become a "mission" for you, because these can be had in the form of the MC10 from X10.com for 30 bucks, and you have spent way more than that with your time invested.

I am going to see if I have a X10 or RS "Mini Commander" in my junk box for you.   :D

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-2677B) low signal strength
Post by: Brian H on January 08, 2016, 06:06:27 PM

At this point and most of the components are tested.
I would suspect something is bad in T1 the tunable coupling/ oscillator transformer, C3 the capacitor that couples the X10 signals to the power lines or C6 that tunes T1 to the X10 120KHz.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-2677B) low signal strength
Post by: bkenobi on January 08, 2016, 06:32:27 PM

Correct, I needed a mini project and this fit the bill  ;D

If the problem is more than replacing a couple diodes, a transistor, and a capacitor then it's not worth the money to fix it.  I'll probably try to source a maxi controller at this point so I can control all of the outdoor lighting.  Or, just use the spare HR12A in my spares box.   ;)

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-2677B) low signal strength
Post by: dave w on January 09, 2016, 11:55:41 AM

Quote from: bkenobi on January 08, 2016, 06:32:27 PM

Correct, I needed a mini project and this fit the bill  ;D

Yeah, I understand that. I have a dead Smarthome Maxi Controller that I have been trying to fix for two years. It started out as a bad filter cap, but now the target seems to be moving. I think I have soldered on the miniscule PC board runs too much, and should toss it, but it has become a mission.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-2677B) low signal strength
Post by: Brian H on January 09, 2016, 06:14:19 PM

I guess a few of us have a mini project.
Mine is an Insteon 2456S3 ApplianceLinc.
Short on the main 30 volt power supply. Most likely a 30 volt zener as they have the reputation of failing. Problem is it is on the PCB and there is a electrolytic cap electrically and mechanically across it. Mounted horizontal over it and they got over generous with the component mounting glue holding it. Cap and diode are encased in this hard blob of goo. I bought a few new diodes and it is just sitting there for months. With no action on my part.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-2677B) low signal strength
Post by: bkenobi on January 12, 2016, 10:46:15 AM

Fate, irony, luck...

I just picked up a free box of X10 components someone on Craigslist didn't want any more.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-2677B) low signal strength
Post by: Brian H on January 12, 2016, 12:53:21 PM

Lucky find.
Looks like a nice assortment. Including one of the interfaces that looks similar to the B&D style transceiver.
Maybe I saw a Sundowner also?

One of these days I may have to use Craig's List myself to clear out things.

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-2677B) low signal strength
Post by: bkenobi on January 12, 2016, 01:28:34 PM

There's some kind of garage door controller in there.  I'm not sure what it is/how it works, but I suspect it's linked to the PowerFlash in some way.

I'm pretty excited about the quantity of non-soft start modules including one 3-way.  I can't complain, but I wish the second 3-way was an older one as well since I really want to swap them in to the garage.

There's also 2 mini-controllers and some kind of IR receiver/mini-controller.  That PR511 is also brand new (insulation stubs on the wires even).  Not sure what else I NEED, but a lot there that's either backups or an option to play with.

I thought the last box I picked up for $25 was pretty good but this one for free is 10x better.  Can't complain for either though.   >!

Title: Re: Plug'n Power Remote Control Center (61-2677B) low signal strength
Post by: dave w on January 12, 2016, 05:57:29 PM

SCORE!  >!