X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: HA Man on December 02, 2022, 12:08:40 PM
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Having gotten to the point of needing to do "serious" diagnosis of electrical system status and issues, I realize that I need more "fire power" in my toolkit than I currently have (or at least, I need to make better/more clever use of the tools I have already). Being a bit "search challenged", I didn't run across any existing topics that address this need, so please pardon any redundancy and re-direct me if an appropriate Topic already exists.
What I'm seeking are recommendations for highly-useful and "can't do without" tools, instruments, etc. that apply to dealing with powerline "condition assessment", and with X10 PLC and wireless troubleshooting. Things that currently come to mind include:
- Power line status monitor/logger device(s) - to assess and track/log electrical issues on the power "network"
- Instrument(s) to monitor and assess the status of the X10 PLC "environment" - to quickly track-down PLC trouble
- Instrument(s) to monitor and assess the status of the X10 wireless "environment" - to quickly track-down wireless signal issues
- Any especially helpful general trouble-shooting instruments, devices, etc.
My own "X10 network" involves a fair number of a broad range of X10 modules, on an electrical system that spans several physically separated buildings and branch circuits, in an area of approximately two acres. So, I'm particularly interested in devices that are useful across such a "large" system, and/or that help deal with issues that arise in "expansive" systems. On the other hand, I don't do this professionally, so I can't justify high-end "professional" tools in most cases.
What instruments and devices have you found to be especially helpful and well worth the investment? And why?
Thanks!
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The products you're looking for were offered by jvde.us but are no longer available. There are several companies that made X10 test devices but you'll only find them occasionally on ebay now.
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I agree.
Their devices where excellent for X10.
My XTB-IIR coupler/repeater works extremely well and the XTBM X10 meter comes in handy.
I did see the XTBR still made.
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I've found the XTBM & XTBM PRO meters (https://jvde.us/xtbm/)( own both) to be extremely helpful in tracking down PLC issues.
Neither is still being produced but if you find one I'd grab it.
These will save you hours if not days in trouble shooting.
As for RF issues I found a simple repeater strategically placed can help as well as extend RF range.
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What instruments and devices have you found to be especially helpful and well worth the investment? And why?
Thanks!
I PM'd you a link to a Monterey X10 tester on ebay. It's a well designed tester that'll get the job done for you.
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Thanks for your recommendations. I wasn't aware of any of those X10 PLC testing devices, so I'll need to look into each of those. Any comments on what sorts of troubles those testers are particularly useful for dealing with - and what they are not so good at testing for?
Meanwhile, what about electrical system monitoring/testing devices - to detect non-PLC electrical problems that can disrupt or damage X10 modules. For instance, sporadic abnormal voltages, spikes, sags, "noise", etc.? I'm particularly interested in detecting wiring faults such as arcing due to loose connections, and such. But so far, I'm not finding much that's very useful without being "over-kill" (and super expensive).
Thanks for your responses!
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The X10 testers are useful in determining signal strength received and noise levels at a given point. This will give you a more detailed explanation: https://jvde.us/xtbm/
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I have the Elk ESM1 signal strength indicator. Very handy.
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I picked up a Kill A Watt meter several years ago when I was building my log home and wishing to check voltages, wats and amps of things. Since I was planing to be totaly off grid I wanted something that could supply me some extra info for things I planed on automating as well as things I wasn't. https://www.amazon.com/P3-P4400-Electricity-Usage-Monitor/dp/B00009MDBU/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?crid=3GPIFX90G58L8&keywords=kill+a+watt+power+meter&qid=1670206094&sprefix=kill+a+%2Caps%2C545&sr=8-3
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While the XTB-ANR was originally designed just to attenuate powerline noise, the more recent firmware also indicates the background noise level. And if the LED flashes in response to a X10 command, the signal level should be adequate for a X10 device to respond.
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This is a bit of a paradox: It sounds like several X10 "diagnostic" meters were available, but no longer are. (Due to lack of demand?) So, unless those can be found "second hand", it leaves one in the position of having to fall back to clever diagnostic uses for other "tools", or even to tedious "trial and error" (such as systematically flipping breakers and switches, and pulling plugs, etc.) So, in the absence of good meters, I'd be interested in learning of any such helpful "clever diagnostic uses" that people have developed.
Meanwhile, one area that seems like it hasn't really been addressed here is the area of tools for assessing the "health" of the electrical system itself, and for tracking-down the causes of electrical faults - such as surges, sags, spikes, and so forth. Some interesting electrical meters have been mentioned here, but it didn't look like any of those were actually fault-trackers in the sense that I'm thinking of. (Please correct me if I'm wrong about that). So, I'm curious whether anyone has found/used any good fault-trackers, that "diagnose" electrical system faults apart from X10 issues?
At the risk of "jinxing myself" by mentioning it, I'd say that - perhaps surprisingly, given the extent of my electrical system - I haven't experienced a lot of X10 "comm" problems. On the other hand, I have encountered more than what seems to be a "reasonable" number of X10 module malfunctions and failures. There is some reason to suspect that the root cause of these problems are issues arising from the electrical system itself, from either "local" or external causes - particularly some sort of spikes or surges. Consequently, I'm especially interested in tools to confirm and to efficiently track down such electrical problems. Anyone found any such good tools?
Thanks again!
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I suspect you have seen Jeff's troubleshooting tutorials but will post the link.
https://jvde.us/x10-troubleshooting/
X10 Wiki.
https://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Main_Page
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You may find this thread helpful as well.
https://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=11117.msg63562#msg63562
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I suspect you have seen Jeff's troubleshooting tutorials but will post the link.
https://jvde.us/x10-troubleshooting/
X10 Wiki.
https://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Main_Page
rofl Yup, I've visited the jvde site recently... but I think that I've worn out the X10 Wiki from all my poking around in there! But, I suspect those will be helpful links for others. Thanks!
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You may find this thread helpful as well.
https://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=11117.msg63562#msg63562
I was fortunate enough that I didn't have to go through that "exercise" - because I mapped my circuits as they were being newly installed.
It does bring up a question though: How to correctly identify the phases in the several sub-panels in out-buildings?
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If you were comfortable enough with it, you could open the panel and look at the wire colors leaving the main and entering the sub and then confirm which phase they were connected to. Careful, it's hot in there!
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If you were comfortable enough with it, you could open the panel and look at the wire colors leaving the main and entering the sub and then confirm which phase they were connected to. Careful, it's hot in there!
That was my first thought as well - and it works for the "local" sub-panels (that is, the ones located in the house) where the wires in the sub-feeder cables are color-coded. Unfortunately, in the case of the sub-panels located in the other buildings, the sub-feeds are supplied via overhead "triplex" cables, which either don't have any identifying marks and/or the electricians weren't concerned about which "side" of the triplex got connected to which half-phase at the weatherheads.
So, that left things uncertain as far as which half-phase in the house goes with which half-phase in each of the other buildings, and I don't know of any practical way to identify which is which (via a measurement of some type). I suspect there is some "trick" that can be used, but I don't know what it may be.
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Unfortunately, in the case of the sub-panels located in the other buildings, the sub-feeds are supplied via overhead "triplex" cables, which either don't have any identifying marks and/or the electricians weren't concerned about which "side" of the triplex got connected to which half-phase at the weatherheads.
So, that left things uncertain as far as which half-phase in the house goes with which half-phase in each of the other buildings, and I don't know of any practical way to identify which is which (via a measurement of some type). I suspect there is some "trick" that can be used, but I don't know what it may be.
If you can temporarily run a long extension cable from the main building to the other buildings, you could measure the voltage between the "hot" side of the extension cable (plugged into the main building) and a phase in the outbuilding. If you get 0 volts, then you're on the same phase. If you get 240 volts then you're on the opposite phase.
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The sub will be fed by both phases so you just need to determine which red/black conductors are connected to in each. Should be simple enough.
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If you can temporarily run a long extension cable from the main building to the other buildings, you could measure the voltage between the "hot" side of the extension cable (plugged into the main building) and a phase in the outbuilding. If you get 0 volts, then you're on the same phase. If you get 240 volts then you're on the opposite phase.
That's along the same lines - but safer, and perhaps easier - than what I was thinking of, which was to turn off the breaker for the sub-feed in the main panel, then put a jumper between the neutral and one of the "hots" on the sub-feed, and then check the continuity between neutral and hots in the sub-panel. Should work - but with some risks and hassles. The extension cord method could be done without removing the covers of either breaker panel (because measurement could be made between the cord and an outlet or fixture in the out-building - which is on a known phase in the building's sub-panel). Thanks for the idea! (Now, to find some looong extension cords... ;-) )
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The sub will be fed by both phases so you just need to determine which red/black conductors are connected to in each. Should be simple enough.
Right... but that's the problem: How to reliably trace the conductor connections (see my previous reply). With the way things were installed, it would be non-trivial - and perhaps impossible - to visually trace the conductors through the entire sub-feed path. So, a measurement of some sort seemed to be easier/more reliable - or perhaps the only option. I just didn't have any ideas about a quick and safe way to make the necessary measurement(s).
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I didn't see initially that you had an aerial run which makes it more complicated. If you can't use the conductor type, then you'd have to trace it some other way. I would still have expected the electrician to use a single run if possible but I suppose you never know. There are devices that let you trace a wire, but I don't know how reliable/feasible that is over that distance nor if it would be safe with an energized conductor. Using the extension cord method suggested earlier is probably easier if you have sufficient length.
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I didn't see initially that you had an aerial run which makes it more complicated. If you can't use the conductor type, then you'd have to trace it some other way. I would still have expected the electrician to use a single run if possible but I suppose you never know. There are devices that let you trace a wire, but I don't know how reliable/feasible that is over that distance nor if it would be safe with an energized conductor. Using the extension cord method suggested earlier is probably easier if you have sufficient length.
Yeah, the overhead triplex cable is sort of the crux of the problem. It has a bare stranded aluminum over steel core conductor that's either used for the neutral (for a split-phase feed) or for the bond (for a single-phase feed that doesn't have it's own "local" ground rod. That bare conductor is also used to support the whole cable, with hangers attached to the anchors on the buildings, poles, etc. The other two stranded aluminum conductors in the triplex cables have insulating jackets but appear to be identical, with no identifier markings that I can find. So, even though the weatherhead cables that attach to each end of the triplex have their insulated conductors clearly marked with white or red stripes, there is no "carry-through" of identifier markings on the triplex, so I don't know how to visually tell which one is which at the other end of the cable. Makes little sense to me that the weatherhead cables would be clearly marked, when they just attach to (apparently) unmarked triplex cables. Perhaps I'm just missing some indicator, but if there is any, it's certainly not apparent, and definitely not "obvious" like the stripes on the weatherhead cables. Maybe somebody reading this can clue me in? Anyway, thanks for your reply.
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The only other things i can think of are trying a battery or using a wire tracer.
If you can disconnecting the conductors at the main panel and attach each to a dc voltage source, you can use a meter at the sub to see which is which. Triplex should have 3 conductors and a neutral (3-1 I'm assuming). So if you have 3 conductors, 1 will be no connection, 1 will be positive, and 1 will be negative. If you only have 2 conductors then it'll just be +/-.
Alternately you can use a wire detective or similar to send a signal down the wire and hopefully see the signal at the main panel. I used a couple variants of these to trace my circuits as well as locating the dead ends of a pre-wired (never installed) security system in my house. Takes patience but did work. Not sure it would help here though since both conductors run unshielded in parallel for a long distance so may just have the same signal.
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Ususally one of the insulated conductores will have a yellow stripe but if not, examine the conductors very carefully to see if one has a raised ridge. Also examine a couple feet of the cable to see if there are any embossed markings which typically repeat every foot or two - you might need to brush some chalk dust on it like looking for fingerprints!