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🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: artk on August 30, 2006, 02:12:16 PM

Title: Flickering Fluorescent Light
Post by: artk on August 30, 2006, 02:12:16 PM
I have a two INSTEON ApplianceLinc V2 3-pin 2456S3 modules. One to a fish tank compact fluorescent light (CF) and the other to a metal halide (MH) light. The CF comes on and goes off as timed, but it flickers (Dimly) all night. The MH goes off but will not restart. The MH is ballast operated. I am using AHP and the CM15A.

Any ideas?
artk
Title: Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
Post by: Dan Lawrence on August 30, 2006, 02:19:24 PM
Lamp modules send a "trickle current", so they cannot be used with Fluorescent Lights.  Some applicance modules don't, so they might work. If you have any applicance modules not being used, try one and see what happens.
Title: Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
Post by: artk on August 30, 2006, 02:35:09 PM
Dave,
This is an appliance module for incandescent and inductive loads. Is this the wrong one?
Title: Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
Post by: artk on August 30, 2006, 02:36:55 PM
Sorry for the name change Dan

Artk
Title: Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
Post by: Dan Lawrence on August 30, 2006, 03:18:12 PM
Sorry for the name change Dan

quote author=artk link=topic=9889.msg57785#msg57785 date=1156962909]
Dave,
This is an appliance module for incandescent and inductive loads. Is this the wrong one?



Artk
Quote


You might try a straight Appliance Module.  The fact that it mentions  incandescent and inductive loads leads me to believe it passes "trickle current".   You want a straight appliance module which should not pass "trickle current".
Title: Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
Post by: Brian H on August 30, 2006, 04:17:36 PM
The 2456S3 has a small amount of current flowing on the outlet for Local Control sensing even when disabled. Much less than the amount X10s have. Could be enough to flicker some loads, but my CFLs do not. Except one brand of CFL a TCP Branded 23 watt
Check your hardware Rev number on the modules. There was a recall for a failing part that can smoke [I did two myself] under some load conditions. More details on their BB.

Update as I checked. 2456S3 Rev 1.3 and above. 2856S3B and 2856S3 Rev 1.4 and above; are corrected modules. Below those Rev numbers you may want to get the replacements.
Title: Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
Post by: Tuicemen on August 30, 2006, 04:30:19 PM
I've gotten out of aquariums and into out door ponds! ;)(I  have bigger fish now!)
artk: They use to make folding tight fiting glass covers that sat on the tank then the light hoods sat over them! do you have one of these? ??? If not moisture may be getting into the fixtures causing them to act up! ::) I have no problem as well using CFLs infact 99% of the house is on them! ;)
Title: Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
Post by: TakeTheActive on August 30, 2006, 06:05:41 PM
Lamp modules send a "trickle current", so they cannot be used with Fluorescent Lights.  Some applicance modules don't, so they might work. If you have any applicance modules not being used, try one and see what happens.

You might try a straight Appliance Module.  The fact that it mentions  incandescent and inductive loads leads me to believe it passes "trickle current".   You want a straight appliance module which should not pass "trickle current".

On what are you basing this Blanket Statement?  ???

To the best of my knowledge, *ANY* X10-Manufactured PLC Receiver Module that has the ability to provide Local Control *MUST* also have Current Sense (aka "Trickle Current").

(I don't keep up with other manufacturers. I vaguely recall a discussion that a SmartHome Module might have had a switch to disable Local Control, but I leave that up to the reader to research.)

Now, *IF* the User is comfortable working with printed circuit boards, s/he *COULD* disable Local Control via the instructions posted on Ido's excellent site (see my SIG LINK for more info). :)
Title: Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
Post by: Brian H on August 30, 2006, 06:34:27 PM
TTA;
Me too on the X10 Modules. All I have seen have had a Local Sensing Current.
One interesting side note. The TM751 has some current also on it's output when off, but not for local control sensing as far as I can see. It seems it has a ' Is my Output Switch on or off sensor '. Have not checked a RR501 but it may also.
Title: Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
Post by: artk on August 31, 2006, 06:38:25 AM
Thank for all your help. I'll have to research ST's web site for recalls. I'll be going out of town for a couple of weeks so I'll check it out when I return.

Life in the key of G
Art k
Title: Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
Post by: dave w on August 31, 2006, 12:48:12 PM
TTA;
Me too on the X10 Modules. All I have seen have had a Local Sensing Current.
One interesting side note. The TM751 has some current also on it's output when off, but not for local control sensing as far as I can see. It seems it has a ' Is my Output Switch on or off sensor '. Have not checked a RR501 but it may also.

Another FWIW
Brian, you are right about the "state of the switch" sensing. All X10 product incorporating the "solenoid cam" latching relay has this. Ito B's mod to make an appliance module "momentary" simply opens this sensing path. The "momentary"  closure actually becomes three machine gun fire pulses on the relay so you get three very rapid closures. The controller chip quits trying after three attempts to see a change in state of the relay contacts. Another ON command and the cycle repeats. If you cut the sensing line when the module was left in the "ON" state, the cycle will then become three rapid fire closings of the relay. Kinda neat, but the Universal module works better in most applications.
Title: Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
Post by: Duck69 on August 31, 2006, 05:40:07 PM
I read so many posts about CFL's, that I had to rest my weary eyes.

I'm wondering if those of you that have had success with CFL bulbs, would post as to what bulbs you're using.

From what I understand the Costco CFL bulbs work well with X10 appliance modules and are made by Feit Electric.
Please correct me if this is wrong.
Title: Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
Post by: TakeTheActive on August 31, 2006, 05:56:21 PM
I'm wondering if those of you that have had success with CFL bulbs, would post as to what bulbs you're using.

Who Manufactures (and Who SELLS?) *DIMMABLE* CFL?  (Read 1040 times)    (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=9281.0)
Title: Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
Post by: Duck69 on August 31, 2006, 10:30:39 PM
I've read the entire post at Re: Who Manufactures (and Who SELLS?) *DIMMABLE* CFL?
But since it was posted here as a reply, I read it again thinking that there might be some new information. But there wasn't.

What I was trying to elicit from my post was which specific CFL BULBS were being used as I have read that some are problematic and thought that it may be helpful to know which was reliable in order to avoid those that are problematic.

(Brian H) Durabright bulbs by TCP cause excessive noise on the X10 line signal range

These were mentioned by -Bill- (of BXVC) and Brian H as not being problematic.

Ones made by Noma 9 & 13 watt.
Dimmable by GE 29 watt FLE29BQBX/DX/829
Conserv-Energy" model # BPCE13T

What others are recommended ? What others to avoid ?
Title: Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
Post by: JimC on September 01, 2006, 07:31:25 AM
Quote
You want a straight appliance module which should not pass "trickle current".

Dan, What model number would this be? I would like to get a couple as I have applications where they would come in handy. They must be something other than X10 modules as I am not aware of any X10 modules that don't have "local control."

Thanks,

Jim
Title: Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
Post by: dave w on September 01, 2006, 12:18:21 PM
Yes Dan, I need some of those "straight" Appliance Modules with no sensing current,  also.
Title: Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
Post by: roger1818 on September 07, 2006, 03:00:32 PM
What model number would this be? I would like to get a couple as I have applications where they would come in handy. They must be something other than X10 modules as I am not aware of any X10 modules that don't have "local control."

Almost all appliance modules will pass a trickle current for the local control circuit.  The Smarthome ApplianceLinc modules can be configured to disable the local control, but I am not conviced that this actually disables the trickle current (though it might).

If you do have an X10 AM486 or AM466, you can modify it to not pass the trickle current by cutting a diode inside the module.  You can find instructions for doing this at Defeating local current sensing (http://www.geocities.com/idobartana/Modifying_Appliance_module.htm#Defeating%20local%20current%20sensing).
Title: Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
Post by: Brian H on September 07, 2006, 04:48:15 PM
roger1818; The appliiancelincs can be set to ignore local control. As you suspected the current is still there. Though I did a test of varied brands of modules and the X10 ones had much more than other brands. Also X10 has a diode in the circuit so it has a DC current. Others have an AC current.
Title: Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
Post by: artk on September 08, 2006, 04:18:09 AM
Roger,
If this mod is applied to the appliance module will the power switch (on\off switch) still work?
Title: Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
Post by: TakeTheActive on September 08, 2006, 04:24:18 AM
If this mod is applied to the appliance module will the power switch (on\off switch) still work?

Of course! Why not? It's *AFTER* the X10 module.  :D
Title: Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
Post by: artk on September 08, 2006, 04:55:24 AM
Quote
"Local current sensing is the feature that automatically turns the appliance module on when the device connected to it is turned on."
When disconnecting this feature (cutting the diode), Won't this prevent the appliance module from seeing the switch turning on and keep the light off ?
Title: Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
Post by: Charles Sullivan on September 08, 2006, 08:18:29 AM
Quote
"Local current sensing is the feature that automatically turns the appliance module on when the device connected to it is turned on."
When disconnecting this feature (cutting the diode), Won't this prevent the appliance module from seeing the switch turning on and keep the light off ?

Correct.  No sensing current - no local control.  But the sensing current is what makes the fluorescent lamp flicker, so you give up local control to stop the flickering.
Title: Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
Post by: Duck69 on September 08, 2006, 10:12:43 AM

I put a CFL bulb (Commercial Electric EDSO-14 (14watt)) into a table lamb plugged into an appliance module (AM486). When turned off it would flicker.
I did the mod I got the mod from , http://www.laureanno.com/ expecting the flicker to stop but lose local control.
To my surprise the flicker stopped and I still had local control. I did the mod on another 2 pin appliance module. Same result, no flickering, still have local control.
Title: Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
Post by: Brian H on September 08, 2006, 11:33:55 AM
Cut the diode and the small jumper. I have seen a few where the current is gone but the thing still saw a switch change unil the jumper was also cut.
Title: Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
Post by: Charles Sullivan on September 08, 2006, 11:40:16 AM
Will someone with electrical knowledge chime in ?
I put a CFL bulb (Commercial Electric EDSO-14 (14watt)) into a 3-way table lamb plugged into an appliance module (AM486). When turned off it would flicker.
I did the mod I got the mod from , http://www.laureanno.com/ expecting the flicker to stop but lose local control.
To my surprise the flicker stopped and I still had local control. I did the mod on another 2 pin appliance module. Same result, no flickering, still have local control. I have not tried it in a regular lamp, so I don’t know if the fact that I used a 3 way lamp made a difference.

There's got to be some way for the module to determine that you've turned on the lamp locally.

Perhaps the mod you performed merely reduces the sense voltage or current to a level low enough that the lamp won't flicker but still high enough for the module to detect the change.  Some users have reported wiring a small night light in parallel with a regular fluorescent fixture can stop the flickering.

It might take putting a voltmeter/ammeter in the circuit before and after the mod to figure out what the difference it.  (Note: an ammeter set on a low scale to measure the low sense current could be destroyed if the lamp suddenly turned on.)
Title: Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
Post by: roger1818 on September 08, 2006, 01:30:19 PM
Will someone with electrical knowledge chime in ?
I put a CFL bulb (Commercial Electric EDSO-14 (14watt)) into a 3-way table lamb plugged into an appliance module (AM486). When turned off it would flicker.
I did the mod I got the mod from , http://www.laureanno.com/ expecting the flicker to stop but lose local control.
To my surprise the flicker stopped and I still had local control. I did the mod on another 2 pin appliance module. Same result, no flickering, still have local control. I have not tried it in a regular lamp, so I don’t know if the fact that I used a 3 way lamp made a difference.

Perhaps the mod you performed merely reduces the sense voltage or current to a level low enough that the lamp won't flicker but still high enough for the module to detect the change.  Some users have reported wiring a small night light in parallel with a regular fluorescent fixture can stop the flickering.

Cutting the diode cuts all current through the load when the module is off. 

I haven't seen this myself (although I have never actually tried to use local control after modifying a module) so I can only speculate as to the cause, but my best guess is that the capacitors inside the CFL are holding a charge after the appliance module is switched off and when you turn the local switch off and then on again you disconnect and then re-connect this charge from the local control circuitry causing the module to turn on.  I would suspect that if you left the module off for an extended period, this charge would dissipate and the local control wouldn't work.  I will have to give this a try when I get home.
Title: Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
Post by: Charles Sullivan on September 08, 2006, 05:34:50 PM
I haven't seen this myself (although I have never actually tried to use local control after modifying a module) so I can only speculate as to the cause, but my best guess is that the capacitors inside the CFL are holding a charge after the appliance module is switched off and when you turn the local switch off and then on again you disconnect and then re-connect this charge from the local control circuitry causing the module to turn on.  I would suspect that if you left the module off for an extended period, this charge would dissipate and the local control wouldn't work.  I will have to give this a try when I get home.

I'll be very interested in hearing of your results.  If you have the time, try your experiment two ways: 1. When  the CFL switch remains On when the module is turned Off;  and 2. When the CFL switch has been turned Off before the module has been turned Off.
Title: Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
Post by: roger1818 on September 09, 2006, 09:45:23 AM
I'll be very interested in hearing of your results.  If you have the time, try your experiment two ways: 1. When  the CFL switch remains On when the module is turned Off;  and 2. When the CFL switch has been turned Off before the module has been turned Off.

I haven't had time to do a lot of tests, but I did discover that I can indeed turn the module on with local control despite the fact that the current sense diode has been cut.  I tried both tests Charles suggested and it worked either way.  In my test I used a Commercial Electric CFL that is equivalent to 150W (I don't know the exact model number).   There are a few other tests I am wanting to try still though.  I will keep you posted.
Title: Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
Post by: jrcpvaz on September 26, 2006, 12:50:47 AM
Cutting the diode on my AM466 did the trick of preventing the flickering flourescent.  I'm not concerned with local control.

However, I can report that there is no way to avoid a flickering flourescent when using the AM465 (lamp module) due to the bias requirements for proper operation of the triac in the module (unless maybe using a parallel incandescent bulb is enough to bypass the trickle current away from the flourescent). So, cutting the diode in that module only, and completely, disables local control feedback. No mod on a AM465 could possibly prevent a flourescent from flickering, unless you introduce a relay (as with the AM466 and AM468).

In looking at the diagram for the AM486 (http://www.laureanno.com), it is apparent that there is still some trickle current available even after cutting the diode due to the input circuitry to the sense input of the IC, but this small amount seems to be insufficient to cause a flourescent to flicker (at least not mine). To completely disable local control you would have to cut the 330K ohm resistor (the one identified to be removed for momentary operation).

Interestingly enough, in my application, if the trickle diode (IN4004) isn't cut, when the AM466 is told to turn off the light, the amount of trickle current present is enough to tell the module to turn the lamp back on. How's that for frustrating?

By the way, in the case of flourescent lights, as I understand it, when the diode is intact, flickering after the light is turned off is caused by the gas in the bulb still being warm enough to fire from that little amount of trickle current needed by the sensing circuitry. When the gas fires, this changes the bias in the sensing circuity, but, as in the case of the AM465, not enough to fool the circuitry into thinking the bulb has been turned on locally. The AM468 circuitry is different enough that the trickle current allowed by the CFL (that I am using) actually generates a bias sufficiently large enough to make the sense input think the bulb has been turned on locally and hence the IC reinforces the issue by firing the triac. Back to the AM465. The current through the bulb is not enough to sustain the gas being fired, so it turns off again. Being still warm, the gas fires again. And so on. Hence the flicker. As the builb cools off, presuming the flickering is not intense enough to keep the gas warm, the flickering eventually stops (it may take hours). If there is a heat source anywhere near the bulb, this will add the degree and duration of the flicker. In my case, my 18" CFL's are mounted on top of a TV set (makes for very good background lighting when on).

So if your CFLs do not turn back on by themselves like mine do (with the AM466 or AM468), then you are fortunate. Like I said, cutting the IN4004 did the trick for me.
Title: Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
Post by: TakeTheActive on September 26, 2006, 12:57:39 AM
However, I can report that there is no way to avoid a flickering flourescent when using the AM465 (lamp module) due to the bias requirements for proper operation of the triac in the module (unless maybe using a parallel incandescent bulb is enough to bypass the trickle current away from the flourescent). So, cutting the diode in that module only, and completely, disables local control feedback. No mod on a AM465 could possibly prevent a flourescent from flickering, unless you introduce a relay (as with the AM466 and AM468).

Thank you for your feedback! You got a "Helpful" from me!!! :)
Title: Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
Post by: Brian H on September 26, 2006, 07:09:02 AM
If it is S. Bloom's schematic it may not be what you have. My Appliance Module did not come close to what the schematic showed so I dew my own. Also there is a mod for the Lamp Modules that get rid of the triac and use a Sharp SSR. I have used that with CFLs and small inductive loads. If you try and dim it all that happens is it goes off when the drive to the SSR goes too low.
Title: Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
Post by: roger1818 on September 26, 2006, 10:03:36 AM
However, I can report that there is no way to avoid a flickering fluorescent when using the AM465 (lamp module) . . .

I assume that when you talk about an AM465 you are actually talking about an LM465?  If so, could you please edit your post to correct this and make it easier to understand for other readers?  The first two letters in model number describe the type of module (i.e. LM = Lamp Module, AM = Appliance Module, MS = Motion Sensor, etc.).  Similarly most modules designed for use in North America end with an A for America.
Title: Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
Post by: Brian H on September 26, 2006, 04:14:33 PM
You should not be using a Lamp Module with a CFL unless it can be dimmed. Some can. Yes you can disable the sensing current in a Lamp Module but not easy as the Diode in a Appliance Module. I removed all the sensing parts in one I did the SSR change to.
Title: Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
Post by: Duck69 on September 26, 2006, 05:33:42 PM
Please see posts Replys  #22 on: September 08 and Reply #27 on: September 09.


I used an appliance module (AM486).
Title: Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
Post by: artk on November 12, 2006, 05:06:15 AM
I have done nothing to the modules and everything is working fine. The CF's and the MH. I waited a couple of weeks to answer just to make sure. All I know is that when I move and reprogram the  CM15A (change times) it takes at least 24 hours for things to return to normal, or start working correctly again.

I have a coupler in the dryer outlet and a repeater in the garage by the fuse box.
artk
Title: Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
Post by: IsleofMine on November 15, 2006, 01:07:51 PM
I cut the diode on my am466 (per the instructions of the previous posts) and now the fluorescent light connected no longer flashes when it's set to be off,  however I still have local control at the lamp.   Does this make sense?    If so,  what's the use of the diode then.

Also,  just cause I'm a worry wort,  does cutting the diode create any potential for a hazard with the module now?
Title: Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
Post by: roger1818 on November 15, 2006, 03:22:48 PM
I cut the diode on my am466 (per the instructions of the previous posts) and now the fluorescent light connected no longer flashes when it's set to be off,  however I still have local control at the lamp.   Does this make sense?    If so,  what's the use of the diode then.

The exact reason of why local control still works with CFLs after cutting the diode isn't known, but it is probably because of a small leakage current.  I suspect that local control won't work with heavier loads with the diode cut.


Quote
Also,  just cause I'm a worry wort,  does cutting the diode create any potential for a hazard with the module now?

As long as you reassembled the case properly, there aren't any potential hazards as a result of this modification.
Title: Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
Post by: Brian H on November 15, 2006, 04:24:35 PM
I cut the diode on my am466 (per the instructions of the previous posts) and now the fluorescent light connected no longer flashes when it's set to be off,  however I still have local control at the lamp.   Does this make sense?    If so,  what's the use of the diode then.

Also,  just cause I'm a worry wort,  does cutting the diode create any potential for a hazard with the module now?

Cutting the diode stops the local control current from flickering the CFLs and CFLs turning back on. There is also a small jumper that stops the local control from working even though the current is gone.

No problem with the mods;  as mentioned; as long as it was assembled properly and you know the waranty is void.
Title: Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
Post by: ronald hirsch on November 24, 2006, 08:27:47 AM
Appliance modules, and the 3-wire switches (requiring a neutral), such as made by Leviton for non lamp loads, all have some trickle current, which is needed to keep the modules operative. The difference is that the "trickle" current does not have to pass through the load. It passes from the hot wire through the module to the neutral. So this current is independent of what the load is, and a load which does not have continuity when it is off, can still be controlled.

There are a wide variety of bulbs, such as various Halogen and fluorecent bulbs whichc have no ciontinuity when off. So, the control module gets no power, and can't run.

There are ways around this when needed. I have friends who have outside lights consisting of numerous fluorescent or halogen bulbs, and theiri X-10 controller stopped working. Replacing one of the bulbs with an incandescent type, solved the problem, as a path was now provided, and full control of all bulbs was restored.