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Author Topic: Flickering Fluorescent Light  (Read 58001 times)

dave w

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Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2006, 12:18:21 PM »

Yes Dan, I need some of those "straight" Appliance Modules with no sensing current,  also.
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roger1818

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Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2006, 03:00:32 PM »

What model number would this be? I would like to get a couple as I have applications where they would come in handy. They must be something other than X10 modules as I am not aware of any X10 modules that don't have "local control."

Almost all appliance modules will pass a trickle current for the local control circuit.  The Smarthome ApplianceLinc modules can be configured to disable the local control, but I am not conviced that this actually disables the trickle current (though it might).

If you do have an X10 AM486 or AM466, you can modify it to not pass the trickle current by cutting a diode inside the module.  You can find instructions for doing this at Defeating local current sensing.
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Brian H

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Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2006, 04:48:15 PM »

roger1818; The appliiancelincs can be set to ignore local control. As you suspected the current is still there. Though I did a test of varied brands of modules and the X10 ones had much more than other brands. Also X10 has a diode in the circuit so it has a DC current. Others have an AC current.
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artk

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Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2006, 04:18:09 AM »

Roger,
If this mod is applied to the appliance module will the power switch (on\off switch) still work?
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TakeTheActive

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Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2006, 04:24:18 AM »

If this mod is applied to the appliance module will the power switch (on\off switch) still work?

Of course! Why not? It's *AFTER* the X10 module.  :D
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artk

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Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2006, 04:55:24 AM »

Quote
"Local current sensing is the feature that automatically turns the appliance module on when the device connected to it is turned on."
When disconnecting this feature (cutting the diode), Won't this prevent the appliance module from seeing the switch turning on and keep the light off ?
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Charles Sullivan

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Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2006, 08:18:29 AM »

Quote
"Local current sensing is the feature that automatically turns the appliance module on when the device connected to it is turned on."
When disconnecting this feature (cutting the diode), Won't this prevent the appliance module from seeing the switch turning on and keep the light off ?

Correct.  No sensing current - no local control.  But the sensing current is what makes the fluorescent lamp flicker, so you give up local control to stop the flickering.
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Duck69

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Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2006, 10:12:43 AM »


I put a CFL bulb (Commercial Electric EDSO-14 (14watt)) into a table lamb plugged into an appliance module (AM486). When turned off it would flicker.
I did the mod I got the mod from , http://www.laureanno.com/ expecting the flicker to stop but lose local control.
To my surprise the flicker stopped and I still had local control. I did the mod on another 2 pin appliance module. Same result, no flickering, still have local control.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2007, 12:54:31 PM by Duck69 »
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Brian H

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Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2006, 11:33:55 AM »

Cut the diode and the small jumper. I have seen a few where the current is gone but the thing still saw a switch change unil the jumper was also cut.
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Charles Sullivan

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Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2006, 11:40:16 AM »

Will someone with electrical knowledge chime in ?
I put a CFL bulb (Commercial Electric EDSO-14 (14watt)) into a 3-way table lamb plugged into an appliance module (AM486). When turned off it would flicker.
I did the mod I got the mod from , http://www.laureanno.com/ expecting the flicker to stop but lose local control.
To my surprise the flicker stopped and I still had local control. I did the mod on another 2 pin appliance module. Same result, no flickering, still have local control. I have not tried it in a regular lamp, so I don’t know if the fact that I used a 3 way lamp made a difference.

There's got to be some way for the module to determine that you've turned on the lamp locally.

Perhaps the mod you performed merely reduces the sense voltage or current to a level low enough that the lamp won't flicker but still high enough for the module to detect the change.  Some users have reported wiring a small night light in parallel with a regular fluorescent fixture can stop the flickering.

It might take putting a voltmeter/ammeter in the circuit before and after the mod to figure out what the difference it.  (Note: an ammeter set on a low scale to measure the low sense current could be destroyed if the lamp suddenly turned on.)
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roger1818

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Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2006, 01:30:19 PM »

Will someone with electrical knowledge chime in ?
I put a CFL bulb (Commercial Electric EDSO-14 (14watt)) into a 3-way table lamb plugged into an appliance module (AM486). When turned off it would flicker.
I did the mod I got the mod from , http://www.laureanno.com/ expecting the flicker to stop but lose local control.
To my surprise the flicker stopped and I still had local control. I did the mod on another 2 pin appliance module. Same result, no flickering, still have local control. I have not tried it in a regular lamp, so I don’t know if the fact that I used a 3 way lamp made a difference.

Perhaps the mod you performed merely reduces the sense voltage or current to a level low enough that the lamp won't flicker but still high enough for the module to detect the change.  Some users have reported wiring a small night light in parallel with a regular fluorescent fixture can stop the flickering.

Cutting the diode cuts all current through the load when the module is off. 

I haven't seen this myself (although I have never actually tried to use local control after modifying a module) so I can only speculate as to the cause, but my best guess is that the capacitors inside the CFL are holding a charge after the appliance module is switched off and when you turn the local switch off and then on again you disconnect and then re-connect this charge from the local control circuitry causing the module to turn on.  I would suspect that if you left the module off for an extended period, this charge would dissipate and the local control wouldn't work.  I will have to give this a try when I get home.
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Charles Sullivan

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Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2006, 05:34:50 PM »

I haven't seen this myself (although I have never actually tried to use local control after modifying a module) so I can only speculate as to the cause, but my best guess is that the capacitors inside the CFL are holding a charge after the appliance module is switched off and when you turn the local switch off and then on again you disconnect and then re-connect this charge from the local control circuitry causing the module to turn on.  I would suspect that if you left the module off for an extended period, this charge would dissipate and the local control wouldn't work.  I will have to give this a try when I get home.

I'll be very interested in hearing of your results.  If you have the time, try your experiment two ways: 1. When  the CFL switch remains On when the module is turned Off;  and 2. When the CFL switch has been turned Off before the module has been turned Off.
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roger1818

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Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2006, 09:45:23 AM »

I'll be very interested in hearing of your results.  If you have the time, try your experiment two ways: 1. When  the CFL switch remains On when the module is turned Off;  and 2. When the CFL switch has been turned Off before the module has been turned Off.

I haven't had time to do a lot of tests, but I did discover that I can indeed turn the module on with local control despite the fact that the current sense diode has been cut.  I tried both tests Charles suggested and it worked either way.  In my test I used a Commercial Electric CFL that is equivalent to 150W (I don't know the exact model number).   There are a few other tests I am wanting to try still though.  I will keep you posted.
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jrcpvaz

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Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2006, 12:50:47 AM »

Cutting the diode on my AM466 did the trick of preventing the flickering flourescent.  I'm not concerned with local control.

However, I can report that there is no way to avoid a flickering flourescent when using the AM465 (lamp module) due to the bias requirements for proper operation of the triac in the module (unless maybe using a parallel incandescent bulb is enough to bypass the trickle current away from the flourescent). So, cutting the diode in that module only, and completely, disables local control feedback. No mod on a AM465 could possibly prevent a flourescent from flickering, unless you introduce a relay (as with the AM466 and AM468).

In looking at the diagram for the AM486 (http://www.laureanno.com), it is apparent that there is still some trickle current available even after cutting the diode due to the input circuitry to the sense input of the IC, but this small amount seems to be insufficient to cause a flourescent to flicker (at least not mine). To completely disable local control you would have to cut the 330K ohm resistor (the one identified to be removed for momentary operation).

Interestingly enough, in my application, if the trickle diode (IN4004) isn't cut, when the AM466 is told to turn off the light, the amount of trickle current present is enough to tell the module to turn the lamp back on. How's that for frustrating?

By the way, in the case of flourescent lights, as I understand it, when the diode is intact, flickering after the light is turned off is caused by the gas in the bulb still being warm enough to fire from that little amount of trickle current needed by the sensing circuitry. When the gas fires, this changes the bias in the sensing circuity, but, as in the case of the AM465, not enough to fool the circuitry into thinking the bulb has been turned on locally. The AM468 circuitry is different enough that the trickle current allowed by the CFL (that I am using) actually generates a bias sufficiently large enough to make the sense input think the bulb has been turned on locally and hence the IC reinforces the issue by firing the triac. Back to the AM465. The current through the bulb is not enough to sustain the gas being fired, so it turns off again. Being still warm, the gas fires again. And so on. Hence the flicker. As the builb cools off, presuming the flickering is not intense enough to keep the gas warm, the flickering eventually stops (it may take hours). If there is a heat source anywhere near the bulb, this will add the degree and duration of the flicker. In my case, my 18" CFL's are mounted on top of a TV set (makes for very good background lighting when on).

So if your CFLs do not turn back on by themselves like mine do (with the AM466 or AM468), then you are fortunate. Like I said, cutting the IN4004 did the trick for me.
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TakeTheActive

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Re: Flickering Fluorescent Light
« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2006, 12:57:39 AM »

However, I can report that there is no way to avoid a flickering flourescent when using the AM465 (lamp module) due to the bias requirements for proper operation of the triac in the module (unless maybe using a parallel incandescent bulb is enough to bypass the trickle current away from the flourescent). So, cutting the diode in that module only, and completely, disables local control feedback. No mod on a AM465 could possibly prevent a flourescent from flickering, unless you introduce a relay (as with the AM466 and AM468).

Thank you for your feedback! You got a "Helpful" from me!!! :)
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