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🖥️ActiveHome Pro => ActiveHome Pro General => Help & Troubleshooting => Topic started by: locorider21 on October 22, 2006, 02:17:29 PM

Title: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
Post by: locorider21 on October 22, 2006, 02:17:29 PM
Ok, question for you guys, is there one UNIT that I can connect to my circuit breaker that will work to eliminate ALL noise in my house. From what ive been reading, i have to actually find the sourceof the noise...... and buy one filter for each source, but is there something that cancels out all noise in house? Is that the PZZ01 and has anyone ever installed it?
Title: Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
Post by: Charles Sullivan on October 22, 2006, 03:27:09 PM
Ok, question for you guys, is there one UNIT that I can connect to my circuit breaker that will work to eliminate ALL noise in my house. From what ive been reading, i have to actually find the sourceof the noise...... and buy one filter for each source, but is there something that cancels out all noise in house? Is that the PZZ01 and has anyone ever installed it?

Afraid not, unless the source of the noise happens to be external to your house, which is rarely the case.  However it is possible for X10 signals from your neighbor's house to reach your house (and vice-versa) if you're both connected to the same power company transformer.  The PZZ01 is intended to isolate you from the outside world.

The usual situation is that you have an electronic appliance with a switching power supply somewhere in your house, possibly a TV or VCR, or even the PC's power supply itself.  And this appliance either:
  1. Introduces enough noise on the powerline to swamp out X10 signals
     -- OR --
  2. Has a large filter capacitance on its AC input which shorts out X10 signals.

The solution to either of these is the special X10 filter inserted between the offending appliance and the powerline.  Once the noise gets on your home's powerline there's not much you can do about it.

Title: Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
Post by: locorider21 on October 22, 2006, 06:41:24 PM
Ok heres my problem, i have 7 decorator dimmer switces installed in my house. One in my hallway, will turn on by remote, but not off. The one in my bathroom will turn off by remote but not on. Ive turned of every electronic device, and nothing changes. I cant find the source of the noise. So what do i do now? The other switches work fine
Title: Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
Post by: KDR on October 22, 2006, 06:46:54 PM
Just turning your devices off may not do it. You may have to unplug them. I have a game cube that puts a ton of noise on the wire even in the off position. The noise only goes away when the unit is unplugged.
Title: Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
Post by: Brian H on October 22, 2006, 06:53:41 PM
So true. Unplug is needed for many items with the power source running in standby for a soft starts.
Title: Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
Post by: locorider21 on October 22, 2006, 07:12:47 PM
And if still nothing works, then wat?
Title: Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
Post by: KDR on October 22, 2006, 07:23:09 PM
Then post back here, but try it. I had modules doing the same thing on's and no off's and so on. When I located the cause and put filters on it solved the problem.
Title: Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
Post by: locorider21 on October 22, 2006, 07:59:56 PM
hey, ok i unplugged EVERYTHING. And i got to the point in which the hall light would turn on and off, then i tested the bathroom light, and still nothing. But when i tried the hall light a second time, nothing happend. So even with everything unplugged, its not working.. Whats the next step.
Title: Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
Post by: Puck on October 22, 2006, 08:07:05 PM
What are you using to control the lights? (sorry if I missed that)

Is it plugged into the same circuit? If not, there could be something in the controllers circuit that could be degrading the signal. And, can you move you controller to the Hall / Bathroom circuit to verify that this circuit is now clean?
Title: Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
Post by: KDR on October 22, 2006, 08:09:27 PM
Can you give us some detail on your setup. What equipment you have, any phase couplers, how and where your controller is plugged in in relationship with your computer. Any UPS being used on your computer? What controller are you using?
Title: Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
Post by: locorider21 on October 22, 2006, 08:15:47 PM
Ok heres my set up. My house is 2400sqft. I have 8 decorator dimmer switches, 1 lamp module, 2 credit card controllers, and 1 palm pad remote controller. I have the lamp module in my den on two lamps. I have the decorator switches, 1 in the master, 1 in the master bath, 1 in bedrom #1, 1 in the hall, 1 for the porch light, 1 for the entry way light, and 1 in the kitchen, and 1 in the bed room bath. All incadescent and all above 60w. I have the CMA15 in the central part of the house, the living room. From the CMA15 to each end of the house is no more than about 40-50 ft. Im using the plam pad remote mainly and it controls everything but 1 switch in the bathroom and 1 in the hall. The bathroom turns off only by remote, not on. The hall turns on only by remote and not off. However ALL switched are operable manually directly from the switch. I have unplugged EVERYTHING in my house to check for noise and i still have the same problem. I have moved the CMA15 around, and nothing changes.
Title: Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
Post by: Puck on October 22, 2006, 08:27:27 PM
I would initially suspect the PC you are using with the CM15A as being a possible signal sucker, but you said that you moved the CM15A around to different locations (hopefully without a PC attached... for test purposes).

Since the problem only affects those 2 locations, I am thinking they might be on a different house phase. A quick check would be to either turn on your oven or your dryer and see if they work better. If they do, you will need a phase coupler.
Title: Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
Post by: locorider21 on October 22, 2006, 08:31:54 PM
Yes  did move the cma15 without a pc attached. But is it better to leave the pc attached at all time then? Cz i usually dont, it just sits on its own in the living room now (the cma15) I did the dryer test and still the same thing.. HA, it seems as if nothing is working for me.. Whats next. Im standing by my computer now waiting for responses
Title: Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
Post by: KDR on October 22, 2006, 08:35:07 PM
What model switches are you using and did they ever work or did they act this way out of the box. It is possible you have a couple of bad switches but the only way to be sure would to be switch it with one that is working (lots of work since there hardwired.)

What house code and unit code are you using? Did you try switching unit codes?
Title: Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
Post by: Puck on October 22, 2006, 08:57:02 PM
I know it can be frustrating, but the laws of electricity apply.... something is preventing the signal from reliably getting from point A to point B.

As KDR suggested, sometimes you have to move a known good unit to a questionable location, just to eliminate the possibility of a bad switch.

At this time, I can't think of anything else, but if you try anything and see different results, please keep us updated. Sometimes seeing a different type of failure can help lead to a solution.
Title: Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
Post by: Charles Sullivan on October 22, 2006, 09:09:07 PM
Yes  did move the cma15 without a pc attached. But is it better to leave the pc attached at all time then? Cz i usually dont, it just sits on its own in the living room now (the cma15) I did the dryer test and still the same thing.. HA, it seems as if nothing is working for me.. Whats next. Im standing by my computer now waiting for responses

Once you get everything working it's probably simpler to leave the CM15A disconnected.

Do I understand you correctly that everything works OK except the bathroom and hall switches?  If so, lets concentrate on those locations, one at a time.

Can you identify a receptacle which is on the same branch circuit as either of these?  It may mean flipping off the (one) circuit breaker which feeds that location and then finding a "dead" receptacle.  After restoring the power, plug the CM15A into that receptacle and see it the results are any better for that particular switch.  If not, plug  one of your Lamp Modules into that same receptacle along with the CM15A and see if it works while the switch doesn't.  If so, then I'd suspect a defective switch.

Title: Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
Post by: locorider21 on October 23, 2006, 07:39:00 PM
ok. I moved the switches around and i am now able to eliminate the possibility of a bad or defective switch.
Title: Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
Post by: Charles Sullivan on October 23, 2006, 07:47:24 PM
OK, now plug the CM15A into a socket on the same breaker as one of the bad locations and see how it works there.

Title: Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
Post by: vhoang on October 23, 2006, 07:56:41 PM
Try what charles suggest, get the cm as on the same circuit as the lights  with the problems, as close as possible.  (by turning off the breaker to the light and finding a dead socket)

It will help identify if there is something between point A (the cm) & B (your switch) that may be causing your problem.

Side Question:

Are your bathroom light or hallway lights florescent lights by any chance?
Title: Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
Post by: locorider21 on October 24, 2006, 09:47:22 AM
Hey, ok i moved the cma15 in a plug on the same ciruit, and still no change.
Title: Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
Post by: locorider21 on October 24, 2006, 09:48:07 AM
BTW,  im not using florescent
Title: Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
Post by: Puck on October 24, 2006, 10:08:53 AM
I don't have any automation controls currently on any of my bathrooms circuits.
So I'm wondering if a GFI outlet can somehow degrade the X10 signal in it's process of monitoring current entering & exiting it?

Hopefully one of the other members can answer this from experience.

locorider21: Because I'm not sure about this and I'm trying to think what might be on your circuit, maybe trip the GFI test button and see if that makes any difference. (Not sure if being tripped actually removes the monitoring circuit though.)
Title: Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
Post by: Charles Sullivan on October 24, 2006, 11:57:42 AM
I don't have any automation controls currently on any of my bathrooms circuits.
So I'm wondering if a GFI outlet can somehow degrade the X10 signal in it's process of monitoring current entering & exiting it?

Hopefully one of the other members can answer this from experience.

locorider21: Because I'm not sure about this and I'm trying to think what might be on your circuit, maybe trip the GFI test button and see if that makes any difference. (Not sure if being tripped actually removes the monitoring circuit though.)


Ordinary GFI-protected outlets are normally not a problem.  About a third of my X10 modules (and the CM11A itself) are on GFI-protected outlets, either at the outlet itself or on a branch with a GFI breaker in the breaker box.  However there are questions about the newer arc-detecting GFIs, which I understand are being installed in bedrooms in newer construction.

locorider21:  Are bathroom and hall  on the same breaker?  What other rooms are on the same breaker(s)?

Title: Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
Post by: dave w on October 24, 2006, 12:29:30 PM
FWIW
I have not had a GFI breaker stop X10 signal but HAVE had GFI outlets kill X10 at the GFI outlet and all outlets fed by the GFI outlet's feed thru. Also, I have had some GFI outlets which did not cause a problem, and unfortunately they were same brand (Leviton) but different models. (the problem children were older units). I believe the problem is how the GFI design senses the current on the hot and neutral lines. My problem unit had hot and neutral conductors looped through a heavy toroid. The non problem design had the conductors only passing through a much smaller toroid (no turns of wire around the torrid). Apparently multiple turns in a fairly large torrid provides enough inductance to really attenuate the X10 signal.

Not much useful information here, other than the fact that some GFI outlets can block X10 signals.

Title: Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
Post by: Charles Sullivan on October 24, 2006, 12:45:33 PM
Thanks for the input Dave.  I had one of the GFI outlets burn out and when I opened it up I saw just the two leads passing through the toroid - no looping - as you describe.  Unfortunately none of the GFIs I've seen could be opened for inspection without wrecking it.

Title: Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
Post by: locorider21 on October 24, 2006, 10:28:28 PM
Ok. hall and circuit are not on same breakers. And i do not have any of those test stop button plugs in my bathroom> reminder: there are wall switched im trying to control, not plugs. Is there anything else i can do?
Title: Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
Post by: vhoang on October 24, 2006, 11:08:09 PM
All bathroom and kitchen sockets are typically protected (electrical code requires it - anything near water really) with only 1 socket somewhere on the circuit with the test button on it.

I swiped this off of smarthome's info page:

Some GFCI devices don't like X10 signals
Yes, I know, it's hard to believe that something would not like X10 signals. We sometimes get calls and letters from customers who mention control problems on GFCI protected circuits. Typically, X10 devices that are down-stream of some GFCI devices will not react to X10 signals. We have concluded that some GFCI fixtures are attenuating the X10 signals. Some brands have more of a negative effect on the signals than do others.

Is there a work-around solution? Two solutions exist: Find a GFCI outlet that does not attenuate signals. Buy your GFCI devices from a supplier that has a liberal return policy. If the brand you install does not pass X10 signals, exchange it for a different brand. Moving to a different model within the same manufacture's family may not fix the problem. Another alternative is to install an amplified coupler repeater that can "blast" the X10 signals over the lines with a high signal strength. Even after the GFCI outlet, there will be plenty of signal strength at the outlet. Most X10 modules need 100mV for reliable operation.

----

Which basically sais some (any) GFCI outlets on a circuit can be sucking up your x10 signal.   Plug in a boosterlinc on the circuit closest toward the breaker panel might amplify the signal enough to get past the outlet causing the problem.   A switch on the same circuit as a outlet will share the same "powerline noise" while only x10 modules downstream of attenuation problems suffer from signal absorption.

Again switchs and outlets are basically the same source, line load ground neutral.
Title: Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
Post by: locorider21 on October 24, 2006, 11:18:09 PM
But i have no outlets in my home with a test button. My home is a little older. 1978 is when it was built
Title: Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
Post by: Charles Sullivan on October 24, 2006, 11:43:55 PM
Ok. hall and circuit are not on same breakers. And i do not have any of those test stop button plugs in my bathroom> reminder: there are wall switched im trying to control, not plugs. Is there anything else i can do?

An installer once mentioned going into the breaker box and snugging down all the neutral connections.  I have no idea how often a loose neutral ends up being the cause of a noise problem, but it appears you've done about everything else I can think of short of plugging in an X10 signal meter and checking for noise.

Do you have all copper wiring?  Not aluminum or copper-clad aluminum?  I understand aluminum can be a problem, for more than just X10 reasons.

Title: Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
Post by: locorider21 on October 25, 2006, 12:23:31 AM
I will check the wiring. Does anyone have a working x10 tester i can use. i would pay for shipping and return to you. I think its too expensive to buy it for a one time use.
Title: Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
Post by: TakeTheActive on October 25, 2006, 01:04:21 AM
Does anyone have a working x10 tester i can use. i would pay for shipping and return to you. I think its too expensive to buy it for a one time use.

Well, *BEFORE* Jim aka Otis69 aka Duck69 chimes in with "You can borrow an ESM-1 from..." :o ;), *I'D* like to state:

[SOAPBOX MODE: ON]
IMHO, when a "little guy" develops and produces such a useful tool for a LIMITED MARKET, the consumers should, if at all economically possible, SUPPORT HIM WITH A PURCHASE. My ESM-1 purchase is a decision that I'll never regret - I use it all the time! :)
[SOAPBOX MODE: OFF]
Title: Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
Post by: Brian H on October 25, 2006, 06:58:23 AM
If you can't get someone with a loaner.
Automated Outlet has ELK ESM-1 testers for loan. You pay for it and the shipping and on return you get credit for the cost of the tester. Note you need a signal source sending the X10 tests. I used my test feature on a Smarthome 1132CU.
www.automatedoutlet.com
Title: Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
Post by: vhoang on October 25, 2006, 12:27:23 PM
While you are there pick yourself up a boosterlinc.

It may be a little pricy but it should help with your troubleshooting and maybe help solve your problem.

If ao does let you return the tester for credit, pick up another boosterlinc on the way back.

Smarthome recommends:
If the home is less than 2,000 sq. ft., start with a SignaLinc Plug-In Phase Coupler.
If the home is larger than 2,500 sq. ft., start with a SignaLinc Plug-In Coupler Repeater.
Install one BoosterLinc Plug-In Signal Booster for every 1,000 sq ft of living space in the parts of the house where you're having issues.
Install a FilterLinc Plug-In Noise Filter on each device that could be absorbing signals (TVs, A/V gear, computers, etc.).

The recommendation is sound, but take it with a grain of salt because they do have products they want to sell.   From what I can tell, there's no harm in taking the advice as it only does good and not harm, but it will cost a pretty penny.

I currently have a PZZ01 with 2 boosterlinc setup.    The PZZ01 just because of neighborhood paranoia.   As far as filters, just grab a bunch of powerstrips from you local hardware with EMF/RFI with a lower boundry of 100kHz and make sure you plug all your regular electronic equipment into that (the higher the db rejection the better).   X10 signals are at 120kHz.   It does the job of the filterlinc's for me and saves a bundle.

www.automatedouted.com (http://www.automatedouted.com) should have all the products from smarthome.
www.sensorsandmore.com (http://www.sensorsandmore.com) has them in the X10 Tools section for a little lower, but not as wide a selection of other X10 stuff.
or go straight to the manufacturer www.smarthome.com (http://www.smarthome.com)
Title: Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
Post by: dave w on October 25, 2006, 12:46:41 PM
FWIW #2

Charles Sullivan reminded me of another problem I have seen in the past. We had a Cutler Hammer breaker panel and I found that periodically pressing the buss coupling end of each breaker (the end pointing towards the center of the panel) would improve my X10 signalling throughout the house. So it became a twice a year PM to "re-seat" all the breaker's buss ends. Later I got lazy and glued a 1/2 inch clear vinyl tube to the back of the panel cover's center bar (the bar covering the buss end of all the breakers). Once the panel door was re-installed the tube applied pressure to the end of breakers. Be advised I am NOT advocating this, it is information only (insert legal gobblygook here).

The problem was; the higher frequency X10 signal would get attenuated in the breaker "spring clip to buss coupling", where 120V 60Hz was coupled well.

The simple test is to simply press down lightly on each circuit breaker bat handle. If your X10 signal reliability suddenly improves, you might establish the practice as  bi-yearly preventative maintenace.
Title: Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
Post by: TakeTheActive on October 25, 2006, 11:42:40 PM
While you are there pick yourself up a boosterlinc.

IMHO, you should:


*BEFORE* you resort to installing a "200 Watt Linear RF Amp" (from the old "CB Radio" days)!  :o

It's much cheaper to SHUT OFF THE VACUUM CLEANER when you're shouting something to your wife than to BUY A MEGAPHONE / PA SYSTEM. ;)
Title: Re: PZZ01 NOISE FILTER< COUPLER QUESTIONS
Post by: vhoang on October 26, 2006, 07:54:13 AM
Not going to disagree with your fine itemized points.

But sometimes when you are making a speech and the people in the back
can't hear you, a PA system is a very feasable solution.   Especially when you can't get always force
people to quite down. 

Quote
0.) BUY an ELK ESM1 X-10® Signal Meter!
.
1.) ELIMINATE any NOISE.
.
2.) ELIMINATE any SIGNAL SUCKERS.
.
3.) INSTALL a PASSIVE COUPLER.

0) The Elk tells you if people in the back can hear you.
1) Every unpluggable device has been unplugged.  to shut them up.
2) The CM15A has been plugged onto the same circuit next to the receiving module
3) The PZZ01 has been identified and recommended as well as a signalinc
4) PA to help out the people in the back hear a little better.

Agreed its cheaper for everything just works the first time.   

But the difference between cheap (getting by) and working well is a matter of knowing
what quality of signal each of your module is getting and helping them when they can't
hear your signals  (removing noise, signal sucker, increasing signal strength).

My option is the same,  When you are ready to start testing signal quality, (if you can afford it) save yourself
a trip and keep a boosterlinc in your toolbelt as it will come in handy at some point in a larger X10 installation. 
 Especially as you grow in the number of X10 modules and each module start sucking
up a bit of the signal along the way.