X10 Community Forum
🛡Home Security => Problems and Troubleshooting => Topic started by: ajermo on July 01, 2009, 07:51:05 PM
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One of the kids friends came over at 3am during summer break and got into the house without the alarm going off. Yes, the alarm was fully armed. How did the kids so easily bypass the system? They took the batteries out of the sensor. Any change in sensor status should immediately trip the alarm including the sensor losing power. We are planning to expand the system with motion/cameras/computer interface for monitoring but now we're questioning if the system will actually work.
Do we have something setup wrong? all sensors show up on the base unit and show tripped in test mode when the window is opened. Alarm goes off if armed and windows are opened. Just so simple to remove the batteries at the sensor and open the window.
Thanks in advance.
Jerry
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Did you have the sensors on the outside of the window?
If the sensor was on the inside of the house, :' Then I would say it was an "Inside Job" and one of your kids took the batteries out...... Also check and see if you have the switch set to "Minimum"
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hehe.. yes, it's inside the switch, and yes, it was an "inside" job. So what happens if the batteries go dead with the system armed? I lose protection and won't know it until I try to rearm the system.
If there's a way I can make the alarm trip when sensors lose power/change state..etc that's preferable. I like the system otherwise.
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........ it was an "inside" job.
We might be able to come up with things to do... and ways to spend money... but you can't defend against yourself. I don't know of anyway around an inside job.
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is there any way to reprogram the unit such that any loss of a sensor is considered a security breach? that would seem logic considering the function of the system is security. Any loss of integrity while armed should be considered an alarm condition. The system does a great job at Arm of telling us a sensor is out. Sounds like a simple code/logic change.
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I believe the sensors have to check in every four hours. If not; a problem is flagged for the zone it is assigned to.
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is there any way to reprogram the unit such that any loss of a sensor is considered a security breach? that would seem logic considering the function of the system is security. Any loss of integrity while armed should be considered an alarm condition. The system does a great job at Arm of telling us a sensor is out. Sounds like a simple code/logic change.
How about the "inside man" just takes a paper clip.. bends it.. and bridges it across the screws of the magnetic sensor? The units report in... no drop in power... system defeated.
You could.. switch to the magnetic reed switches, that are concealed in the door and door jam. Then fish (hardwire) the DS10A (sending units) to a central area... like YOUR bedroom closet or a locked cabinet. Use the motion sensors to limit the area of travel inside the home (restricting the access to the inside man).
Then as a backup/control use Active Home Pro (with the software suite including On Alert). The computer will be able to monitor your security devices AS-WELL-AS... a secondary system could be setup. I use BVC (http://davesdomainonline.com/bvc/bvc.htm) and voice notices, alerts, and warnings to let me know what is going on around me.
I use a perimeter detection system myself (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkAwQ4KXkHA). Using the X10 floodlights (PR511) and monitoring cameras with a Voice Warning System. You could surround your house with floodlights making it diffcult to approach (or exit) your home. You would also want to locate the switches for those lights where they can be monitored or access restricted.. from the inside man. The voice warning will tell you which floodlight detected the motion.
Keep in mind... your NOT protecting yourself from flaws or defects in the system. Your inside person is your problem (http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=18394.msg102419#msg102419). You need to also target that person(s) and protect your detection system from that person(s). You will need to control (lock up) "normal" household items.. like tools and ladders. Given an unlimited amount of time... all systems no matter how carefully planned or how well constructed... will be defeated. However I am assuming that you have a rebellious child that you feel may outgrow this problem.
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I'm familiar with alarms. This one is just too easy to bypass. I'll install a proper system. At least then it's much harder for children to figure out how to bypass it.
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....This one is just too easy to bypass. I'll install a proper system. At least then it's much harder for children to figure out how to bypass it.
All alarms are simple....
The paper clip trick is well known to old movies and TV shows. Even very small children understand... no battery.. no signal. Every 14 year old girl knows how to sneek out [of the house] to meet her boyfriend... every father knows this. I wish you the very best of luck.
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I'm familiar with alarms. This one is just too easy to bypass. I'll install a proper system. At least then it's much harder for children to figure out how to bypass it.
So what would you take for your DS7000? I need another back to replace the one I lost
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One of the kids friends came over at 3am during summer break and got into the house without the alarm going off. Yes, the alarm was fully armed. How did the kids so easily bypass the system? They took the batteries out of the sensor. Any change in sensor status should immediately trip the alarm including the sensor losing power. We are planning to expand the system with motion/cameras/computer interface for monitoring but now we're questioning if the system will actually work.
Do we have something setup wrong? all sensors show up on the base unit and show tripped in test mode when the window is opened. Alarm goes off if armed and windows are opened. Just so simple to remove the batteries at the sensor and open the window.
Thanks in advance.
Jerry
Well I would >*< the heck out of the kids and wouldn't worry as long as they don't tamper with the system you should be fine, but as was stated there's really no way to guard against an inside job not even the system I spent almost 2 grand on would have protected against this.
Tom j.
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One of the kids friends came over at 3am during summer break and got into the house without the alarm going off. Yes, the alarm was fully armed. How did the kids so easily bypass the system? They took the batteries out of the sensor. Any change in sensor status should immediately trip the alarm including the sensor losing power...
The professional system I have has sensors on the all wireless units that trip if the battery compartment is opened and all the doors have concealed sensors. i.e. No visible wires to short.
I don't know if it's common or not but I believe some (maybe only the very high end systems) do an impedance check to prevent contact shorting. i.e. The reed sensors have a specific resistance that the circuit recognizes. Of course the X10 system does not fall into this category and can be easily shorted by an inside person.
As others have have said and you probably now realize, your real problem is dealing with the "inside person".
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........ your real problem is dealing with the "inside person".
As a parent myself... I realized no parent wants to believe their child... is a problem child. But not all kids CAN be trusted throughout their developmental years. And NO CHILD should be completely trusted. Their mushy little brains are still growing.. and don't always work correctly. They need our watchful protection.
However.. not being able to have a reasonable amount of trust in a family member.... is NOT a technology failure.
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He needs to realize we are talking about Home Security, not Homeland Security. No system is perfect and flawless. But like it has been stated already in this thread there are little steps that can be made to make these systems more secure from "Inside" jobs.
We have 3 teenage boys, and let me tell if there is trouble to be found one of these 3 will find it. But so far none of them have attempted to disarm any of the X10 devices in the house. Well placed cameras, motion sensors and AHP keep them walking a stright line. Not to mention like tom j said they also know they will get >*< if they do.
I love my DS7000's and for the price it's well worth it! Also give a good piece of mind when you go to bed or leave the house.
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...not being able to have a reasonable amount of trust in a family member.... is NOT a technology failure.
Well put and even the best of parents can have "challenging" kids.
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Let this thread die. I am over qualified to quantify the quality and security of my system. Over 20 years of Electronics experience. I expected to much from the system. For the cost of what I have it's still a great deal. For the application it's in I'll never again trust it for security inside or out. A few lines of code could easily "fix" the battery issue but then you can't get around a paperclip, magnet, or just shutting the system off.
As I stated, for the cost it's still a good deal.
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One of the kids friends came over at 3am during summer break and got into the house without the alarm going off. Yes, the alarm was fully armed. How did the kids so easily bypass the system? They took the batteries out of the sensor. Any change in sensor status should immediately trip the alarm including the sensor losing power...
The professional system I have has sensors on the all wireless units that trip if the battery compartment is opened and all the doors have concealed sensors. i.e. No visible wires to short.
I don't know if it's common or not but I believe some (maybe only the very high end systems) do an impedance check to prevent contact shorting. i.e. The reed sensors have a specific resistance that the circuit recognizes. Of course the X10 system does not fall into this category and can be easily shorted by an inside person.
As others have have said and you probably now realize, your real problem is dealing with the "inside person".
Say Steve getting ready to add a few wireless sensors to my DSC hybrid system so I'm going to have to check if mine will prevent tampering like yours do. Sure hope so hadn't really thought about it unit you pointed this out. Thanks!
Tom j.
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One of the kids friends came over at 3am during summer break and got into the house without the alarm going off. Yes, the alarm was fully armed. How did the kids so easily bypass the system? They took the batteries out of the sensor. Any change in sensor status should immediately trip the alarm including the sensor losing power...
The professional system I have has sensors on the all wireless units that trip if the battery compartment is opened and all the doors have concealed sensors. i.e. No visible wires to short.
I don't know if it's common or not but I believe some (maybe only the very high end systems) do an impedance check to prevent contact shorting. i.e. The reed sensors have a specific resistance that the circuit recognizes. Of course the X10 system does not fall into this category and can be easily shorted by an inside person.
As others have have said and you probably now realize, your real problem is dealing with the "inside person".
Say Steve getting ready to add a few wireless sensors to my DSC hybrid system so I'm going to have to check if mine will prevent tampering like yours do. Sure hope so hadn't really thought about it unit you pointed this out. Thanks!
Tom j.
Most DSC systems will trigger a tamper alarm if the wireless sensors are opened or in some cases even removed from the wall, etc. Depending on how your system was programmed, this could manifest as a simple trouble or a full-blown alarm condition.