X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Topic started by: nabril15 on March 28, 2011, 11:30:55 AM
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Hello
New to X10, so be kind...
I want to control 4 single pole light switches in my home that control 4 different outdoor lamps that have CFL bulbs. Two of these have an in-wall digital timer to control them, but I would like to switch to one central control for all 4. While the on/off times will be similar (probably equal), I would like to have the option of programming different on/off times; I would also like the option of turning these 4 lights on/off manually by pressing a button somewhere.
What product(s) do you recommend that are wallet friendly?
The MT136 and 4 WS467 switches? Is there a DEcora style switch that I can use?
Is there a "smarter"/cheaper way? Z-wave?
Thanks
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WS467 or the decorator WS12A are both two wire dimmers and can not be used with CFLs or any non-incandescent type bulbs.
The decorator WS13A can be used as it does not dim and used a separate Neutral wire. So the switch box will have to have Line Load and Neutral.
Compared to X10. ZWave, Insteon and UPB are all much more costly.
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thanks Brian.
If I use the WS13A (decora style) can I manually turn the light on/off from the decora switch itself AND at the mini controller as well?
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Yes but double check for a neutral power wire where the switch is being connected.
You may find some dealers have the X10Pro XPS3. It is the same as the WS13A.
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learning a lot..thank you all.
If I have 4 XPS3 switches installed, how do I specify say 3 different on/off programs? With 3 different house codes on the switch?
I want 2 lights with 1 on/off program, and 2 others with 2 different ones. So 2 switches get code A, 1 gets code B, and 1 gets code C, etc ,etc?
Thanks
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I don't recognize a MT136. Is it an X10 product and maybe a MT13A MiniTimer?
Most X10 controllers can only do one house code.
So you may have to pick the same house code for all the switches and use different unit codes between the groups you want to control together.
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brian. i meant MT13A mini timer.
Can you elaborate on your last sentence please?
I am looking for the manual to understand it better.
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The MT13A can only do one House Code. A-P
So all the modules have to use the same House Code as the MT13A is set to.
You should be able to use different Unit Codes to separate the switches from each other.
If you want two of them to respond to the same address. You can set more than one to the same address.
Like if you have A1 in two of the switches. They will both follow On Off and Dim commands sent to A1.
Manuals and extra information here.
http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Mini_Timer
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thanks Brian
I read through the manual before your post and understood it a lot better.
One house code, many unit codes.
Sweet.
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You still may find added tips in the wiki.
The X10 protocol uses Unit Codes 1-16.
The MT13A can only do 1-8. So you will have eight Unit Code choices.
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Ok, still working on this. I want an automated controller AND the option of using a remote such as the KR22. My controller will be the MT13A, but can I add the KR22 and 1 receiver like the TM751. In my scenario I will have a house code of A, and a separete unit code for the 4 lights and lamp plug-in module. I plan to use the TM751 to control the lamp.
1) I plan to control 5 things, so I guess the Tm751 isnt for me since it only controls 4. But let's continue for learning's sake.
2) I read the instructions for the TM751 and I am confused about something. It states to set the code on the receiver to match the code of the remote I will use it with. So, how do I control the lamp that is plugged into it? What code does it use?
3) The remote will have up to 4 codes programmed to it to control 4 lights. So how does it match the code I mentioned in the instructions in my line 2.
I want to do my research, but the more I dig, the more variables that I discover.
I want to control 4 light switches and a plug-in lamp with XPS3's and MT13A. Fine
How do I add remote control capability to that equation so that I can program them to come on at X time, off at Y time, and turn them on/off with a remote whenever I want?
Thanks again
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The TM751 is a transceiver. It is what provides wireless RF contol. It receives the RF signal from RF remote controls like a Palm Pad and puts the signal on the homes powerlines to control Appliance Modules, Lamp Modules, and Wall Switches. The same House Code is set on the TM751 and the Palm Pad or outher remote. There are 16 Unit Codes available in a House code. So, though the TM751 you can control up to 16 devices/lights. The TM751 also has an outlet which responds to Unit Code 1.
The Mini Timer can cotrol the four outside lights. As Brian siad you need neutral wires in the wall boxes where you plan putting the WS13s. If you do not have neutral, you might be able to use Socket Rockets in the fixtures themselves to control the CFLs.
You might also consider full home automation rather than simple timer control. The Cm15A with the AHP software would take the place of the Mini Timer for more sophisticated control.
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As Dave pointed out. The TM751 can do all sixteen Unit Codes for one House Code.
Your four limitation is not the TM751 but the KR22A having four addresses. One house code and four unit codes. The unit code can be set for the first button set. The other three are the next unit up. Like if you set the top to A1 {the default} the next three are A2 A3 and A4.
The MT13A can do the preset times and the KR22A with TM751 can do four addresses. The HR12A Palm Pad can do all sixteen as Dave said.
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thank you Dave and again Brian.
I work in IT, and I assure you I am not dense, just new to house and unit codes. When you look at most x10 product pages, they all say they can do miracles and wonders. Then you get the item at home, and you discover otherwise.
Can I control the lamp that will be plugged into the Tm751 with the mini timer?
That one will have code A1, by default, so the other 4 lights will have A2-A5, right?
Thankfully, I have neutral wires, so I will be ok.
So, I will get a palm pad to allow for future expansion. Can I get the sleek-looking, black Scan pad instead?
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No the MT13A can not control a TM751. The TM751 has no power line receiver in it.
Its big brother the RR501 has a power line receiver in it and can be controlled by an RF remote or the MT13A. It has a choice of unit one or nine. In its address.
You rarely see the RR501 on sale by X10 but many of the EBay X10 dealers have them at good prices. Most also through in free shipping. I got a later revision RR501 myself this week.
I read the CR12As users sheet and it appears it can control all 16 unit codes for the House Code it is set to. It also has a scan feature that cycles the cameras that are in one of the groups of four. 1-4,5-8,9-12 and 13-16. I don't know how that would effect normal light controls.
http://www.x10.com/instructions/cr12a_inst.htm
http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/CR12A
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excellent information again Brian, very helpful.
See? Not knowing what you stated would lead to a wrong purchase.
Thanks again
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You are welcome.
Though it does sound like the CR12A can do all sixteen addresses and is the nice Black Case.
OH maybe I am off base and you where referring to the TM751 not being MT13A controllable.
You may want to start looking at some of the troubleshooting threads to see what sometimes can effect X10 signals.
http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm
http://www.act-remote.com/PCC/uncle.htm
http://www.davehouston.net/
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yeah Brian
I was planning on plugging in a lamp to the tm751 and have it be controlled by the mini timer.
But, since you said that it does not receive a signal, I will seek the RR501.
It's hard to believe that little box can act to control whatever is plugged into it, AND to relay signals to other x10 devices.
Brian. I just found an equivalent to the mt13a which is X10 Pro, the XPMT4. How is it better or different from the regular timer?--just read--stricter guidelines and certifications.
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ok, finally bought all this stuff, and I await it's arrival. MT13A, RR501 and cr12A coming to me along with 3 XPS3 switches.
1) I will have a lamp plugged into the RR501, so do I give the RR501 A1 or A9? Or does it matter?
2) What code do I give the cr12A remote to communicate with the RR501?
I've looked at the cr12a's manual, and I'm not clear as to how to program the buttons to power on/off my 3 lights, and the lamp plugged in.
3) I assume my 3 switches will get A2, 3, and 4.
thanks again
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1 The MT13A can only do units 1-8. Guess you use unit 1 for the RR501.
2 You pick the House Code on the dial. The individual button sets will do units 1-8 or 9-16 depending on the selector slide switch on the CR12A.
So an lamp module set to A2. The buttons for 2 {10 if the selector was on 9-16} On and Off will control them. No buttons need to be programed.
So you could pick A2-A8 if you also want the MT13A to control them. If you only wanted the C12A to control them you could pick A1-A16.
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alright Brian. I received my xps3's, and the other stuff. The RR5001 is controlled fine by the MT13A; I havent tried the remote yet.
I installed my first XPS3 (with code A2) and it works fine from the actual switch. However, the MT13a will not turn that switch on/off. I read the install instructions further, and it makes reference to the phases in the breaker and PLC. I will call them on Monday to confirm, but do I now need to get another component (the TW523 or the PL513--not sure of which one). I looked at the technical docs of both, and I got lost as I am not an electrician that understands wave analysis and phases.
Do I now need to get one of these 2 to make my XPS3's work?
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No a TW523 or PL513 are basic X10 interfaces that need a computer to code the data for sending.
You may need a phase coupler.
Do you have any 220 volt appliances? Like adryer or stove?
If so try turning them on and see if things get better.
It does sound like you may have a phase coupling, signal sucker or power line noise problem.
http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm
http://www.act-remote.com/PCC/uncle.htm
http://www.davehouston.net/coupling.htm
http://www.davehouston.net/noise.htm
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wholly cow Bryan. Thanks for the references, but I am not an electrician.
I think I may try to move the mt13a to an outlet on the same side of the panel as the xp3s. That sounds doable as opposed to having a qualified electrician install a phase coupler..
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Yes I sometimes forget the simple things to try.
Moving the MT13A to different circuits would be an easy thing to do.
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wholly cow Bryan. Thanks for the references, but I am not an electrician.
You will be.
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got it figured out. I used a different switch, and it works fine. Apparently I dont have PLC issues.
These things are pretty amazing. Loud when they switch on/off, but amazing.
Let's see what else I can automate!!
thanks a lot guys.
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Glad you got it working.
You may want to rotate the house and unit code dials on the problem one. They maybe dirty and not setting to the indicated address.
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hey again Brian
I want to use x10 to control an outside floodlight. I am not too interested that it be motion activated, just on/off. My plan is to get a standard 2-light flood light lamp with CFL's. I will wire it to an x10 switch which I can control manually from the outside, or remotely from the inside with my new CR12A. In looking, it appears that the xps3 is the only x10 switch compatible with CFL's. Is that correct? Most plastic/outdoor rated light switch covers are designed for the standard (non-decora) style of switches; I have yet to come across a switch cover that can handle Decora.
I just discovered the PR511 which has a lot of unneeded stuff for me right now, but it eliminates the need for a switch. However, I want the flexibility of manual switching if I am outside, or to use the remote if I am inside. No, I am not being lazy, I just want to give me 2 options for turning on that light.
thanks
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The X10 WS13A is their version of the X10Pro XPS3.
Both need a Neutral Power Wire in the switch box.
http://www.x10pro.com/pro/pdf/xps3.pdf
X10Pro also makes a XPFM module that goes inside the fixtures electrical box and is controlled by X10 power line signals.
http://www.x10pro.com/pro/pdf/xpfm.pdf
Leviton may make a toggle style switch.
The much more expensive Insteon ToggleLinc Relay can also control CFL style bulbs and have an X10 Address programmed into it.
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thanks again Brian.
I looked at the pdf for the XPFM, and it states "This allows hard-wired switching control from inside a lighting fixture".
So, if I put the XPFM inside my round floodlight box, and I wire a regular (non x10) switch down from it, would I be able to power it on with either the switch or my x10 remote? Or can I only use the x10 remote?
Disregard--I just saw one of these on ebay, and they mention to use these when there is no suitable location for an x10 switch. If I want to control these via switch or x10 remote, I will need to use an xps3.
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@ Dave,
...If you do not have neutral, you might be able to use Socket Rockets in the fixtures themselves to control the CFLs.
Did the specs for the Socket Rockets change? The LM15A pdf says "2. Screw an incandescent light bulb (up to 150W) into the LM15A. Do NOT use with fluorescent lamps!"
Do others have specific experience using the LM15A with CFLs?
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I have several LM15's with CFLs in them, no problems what so ever. The only caveat is some CFLs will burn out the triac in the LM15A making it useless. Not every brand of CFL does that though.
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Mine too works with a CFL, however, your mileage may vary. ;)
>!
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Did the specs for the Socket Rockets change? The LM15A pdf says "2. Screw an incandescent light bulb (up to 150W) into the LM15A. Do NOT use with fluorescent lamps!"
Do others have specific experience using the LM15A with CFLs?
No the specs did not change.
The Socket Rocket uses a triac, electronic switch, to supply current to the bulb. All triacs, even when gated "full on" (no dimming) add a small amount of distortion to the AC wave form when they turn ON at each AC half cycle. Incandescent bulbs could give a rip about any distortion.
However some CFLs and LED bulbs may not like this distortion, so X10, IMHO, does a liability CYB and states only usable with incandescent bulbs. So you use a Socket Rocket CFL combination at your own risk. But I use Socket Rockets with CFLs (GE brand) and even wall wart switching power supplies with out consequence. However I did have consequence when I used Socket Rockets to drive transformer based wall warts (it took a year, but the cases melted because the small distortion made the transformer run hotter than normal).
Experiment using the CFL in a Socket Rocket. Check the bulb after a few hours of operation for excessive heat or smell. I have no problems with GE 23W and 13W CFL bulbs. Like Bill said "your mileage may vary".
Also, I had difficulty programming the HCUC in a Socket Rocket with a CFL bulb installed. Worked fine after I subbed a 60W incandescent for programming, then switched to the CFL. Since the SR has both hot and neutral in the light socket I can't explain why I had problems programming, but I ran into this more than once.
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I have tested a few brands of CFLs and LEDs. With a Socket Rocket and my XTBM. Some do generate more power line noise when on the Socket Rocket. Probably the slightly distorted AC waveform or the small coil in the output is making the difference.
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I have tested a few brands of CFLs and LEDs. With a Socket Rocket and my XTBM. Some do generate more power line noise when on the Socket Rocket. Probably the slightly distorted AC waveform or the small coil in the output is making the difference.
Maybe.
But when programming, the CFL is unpowered, and the SR is connected directly to the line. I'm now thinking it might have been a cockpit problem at my end. In each instance I was using a Maxi Controller to program. Next time I try programming with a CFL I will try a different Maxi to eliminate that unknown.
Thanks!