X10 Community Forum

🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Topic started by: tom j on August 29, 2011, 10:16:09 PM

Title: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: tom j on August 29, 2011, 10:16:09 PM
Hi I really love my x10 Home Automation system although I will have to post concerning a problem I'm having with my AHP unit. My question is whats going to happen when the government mandates these new energy efficient compact fluorescent bulbs, I'm particularly concerned about the x10  wall switches I don't think the current switches are compatible and other then stock up for the next 20 years of the old incandescent bulbs what are we to do.  ???


Tom j.
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: Dan Lawrence on August 30, 2011, 07:58:45 AM
Some CFLs put out noise that block X10 signals plus many lamps that are 3-way can't use CFLs as the unit is too big for the lamp harp.  The only way to use CFLs with X10 is to try some and see what happens.  I've had CFLs on the same circuit that caused noise that stopped 5 X10 modules from getting signals.
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: tom j on August 30, 2011, 01:22:24 PM
Some CFLs put out noise that block X10 signals plus many lamps that are 3-way can't use CFLs as the unit is too big for the lamp harp.  The only way to use CFLs with X10 is to try some and see what happens.  I've had CFLs on the same circuit that caused noise that stopped 5 X10 modules from getting signals.

Hum.. that doesn't sound good wondering if x10 has any plans to address this. Will those x10 wall switches work with compact fluorescence's I thought I read you needed a filament for it to work. Thanks!

Tom j.
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: Dan Lawrence on August 30, 2011, 10:43:10 PM
CFL's come with bases like a standard light bulb.  You screw it into a lamp and it lights up.   What I wrote about was NOISE!  Some CFLs put out noise on the power line that blocks X10 signals, believe it or not it's trial and error.  I had one in a light going up to my attic.  None of the X10 controlled lights on that circuit worked, until I replaced it with a standard light bulb. 
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: Noam on August 31, 2011, 09:53:41 AM
As to your question about the switches, that may be where you might right into a problem.
X10 switches require a small amount of constant power to operate. Otherwise, they would never be able to listen for commands, and respond to them.
The "two-wire" switches (the ones that only connect to the "Line" and "Load" wires, and not the "Neutral" wire) work by running a very small amount of current through the load in order to get the power to run. Most florescent bulbs (including most CFLs) are not designed to be able to pass this small amount of current. Those bulbs need a switch (or module) that has a connection to the "Neutral" wire, in order to always get power.
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: dave w on August 31, 2011, 10:19:16 AM
Hum.. that doesn't sound good wondering if x10 has any plans to address this.
The brewing mandate problem has no X10 solution, other than replacing all X10 two wire wall switches with three wire switches, which requires a neutral line in the wall box. And most homes do not have neutral lines in all their wall switch boxes.  This is a serious two pronged problem for X10's future. The majority of all the wall switches they have ever sold are "essentially" incompatible with CFL's and more CFLs generate more noise. There are ways, at the consumer level, which can "coax" a CFL to work with a two wire X10 switch, but involves ways of leaking enough current past the CFL to keep the electronics in the X10 switch active (incandescent nightlights in the circuit, resisters in the circuit, etc.)

This may be why we see X10 branching out in their market products. I think they see the hand writing on the wall.
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: tom j on August 31, 2011, 09:07:02 PM
CFL's come with bases like a standard light bulb.  You screw it into a lamp and it lights up.   What I wrote about was NOISE!  Some CFLs put out noise on the power line that blocks X10 signals, believe it or not it's trial and error.  I had one in a light going up to my attic.  None of the X10 controlled lights on that circuit worked, until I replaced it with a standard light bulb. 

You might of been talking about noise BUT I Wasn't. Noam and Dave addressed my concerns about compatibility. Thanks!

Tom j.
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: Noam on August 31, 2011, 10:39:04 PM
With the abundance of two-wire timers installed throughout the US, I would think that some innovative manufacturer would have come up with a homeowner-compatible solution by now.
They would need to design a bulb that would be able to pass that small current when it was off, yet not interfere with the normal operation of the bulb.
Sounds like a patentable idea.
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: JeffVolp on September 01, 2011, 12:38:07 AM

To deal with the CFL/LED bulb problem, it would be easy to build a combined filter and current path into a socket extender like the Socket Rocket.  There is a potential huge market for something like that.

Jeff
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: Noam on September 01, 2011, 09:02:20 AM

To deal with the CFL/LED bulb problem, it would be easy to build a combined filter and current path into a socket extender like the Socket Rocket.  There is a potential huge market for something like that.

Jeff
So, what are you waiting for? Put me on the mailing list!
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: JeffVolp on September 01, 2011, 09:21:20 AM

To deal with the CFL/LED bulb problem, it would be easy to build a combined filter and current path into a socket extender like the Socket Rocket.  There is a potential huge market for something like that.

Jeff
So, what are you waiting for? Put me on the mailing list!

Unfortunately, that is not a product I could offer.  To make it cost effective it would have to be made in China in large volume.

Jeff
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: Noam on September 01, 2011, 10:35:22 AM
Aww.
I'm sure it could also be done as something that goes across the hot and neutral, at the fixture. That would be better for fixtures that don't have the clearances to use a socket extender.
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: JeffVolp on September 01, 2011, 10:59:16 AM
I'm sure it could also be done as something that goes across the hot and neutral, at the fixture. That would be better for fixtures that don't have the clearances to use a socket extender.

That couldn't include a low-pass filter to block noise and prevent signal attenuation.

Jeff
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: Noam on September 01, 2011, 11:04:39 AM
I'm sure it could also be done as something that goes across the hot and neutral, at the fixture. That would be better for fixtures that don't have the clearances to use a socket extender.

That couldn't include a low-pass filter to block noise and prevent signal attenuation.

Jeff
I'm sure you're right (I have no idea what I'm talking about with these things most of the time ;) ). I guess it would have to be installed in-line with the fixture (like any other filter), but would also have to be able to pass current across at the same time.
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: dave w on September 01, 2011, 11:28:44 AM
A fixture based "leaker" would still be helpful to get the old switches to work. X10 users would just have to spread the word about what brand of CFL bulbs do not generate "in band" noise.

I wonder if something as simple as a proper wattage resistor at what ever resistance is needed to leak enough current (I don't know what value should be, I don't know what a WS467 draws while idle) with white and black insulated wires attached to make it easy for the non technical to wire in a fixture. Just insert the leaker between the black and white, nutted wires in the fixture. I wonder how the resistor would have to be mechanically protected to get NEC approval.

Might be a simple product that could be sold for 5 or 6 bucks.
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: tom j on September 01, 2011, 01:37:45 PM
With the abundance of two-wire timers installed throughout the US, I would think that some innovative manufacturer would have come up with a homeowner-compatible solution by now.
They would need to design a bulb that would be able to pass that small current when it was off, yet not interfere with the normal operation of the bulb.
Sounds like a patentable idea.

Hmm think you guys might really be on to something I'm all for it count me in too!

Tom j.
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: tom j on September 01, 2011, 05:11:31 PM
Hum.. that doesn't sound good wondering if x10 has any plans to address this.
The brewing mandate problem has no X10 solution, other than replacing all X10 two wire wall switches with three wire switches, which requires a neutral line in the wall box. And most homes do not have neutral lines in all their wall switch boxes.  This is a serious two pronged problem for X10's future. The majority of all the wall switches they have ever sold are "essentially" incompatible with CFL's and more CFLs generate more noise. There are ways, at the consumer level, which can "coax" a CFL to work with a two wire X10 switch, but involves ways of leaking enough current past the CFL to keep the electronics in the X10 switch active (incandescent nightlights in the circuit, resisters in the circuit, etc.)

This may be why we see X10 branching out in their market products. I think they see the hand writing on the wall.

Hi do you think this might have something to do with the rumor that x10 is shutting down shop  ??? And how about the newer technologies like Z wave and Insteon. Are they also plagued with these compatibility issues. Thanks!!

Tom j.
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: Noam on September 01, 2011, 08:22:10 PM
Any 2-wire timer or remote switch without a battery relies on being able to pass a small amount of power through the fixture in order to work. My dad found this out 30 years ago when his electrician installed a timer in-line with a dimmer in the dining room. Every time my dad dimmed the lights all the way down, it reset the timer. He eventually removed the dimmer, and hasn't had a problem since.

You would encounter the same issue with 2-wire Insteon or Zwave switches. Unless you have a neutral wire in the box, or you have a battery in the switch, there is no other way to keep the device powered without passing it through the load.
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: tom j on September 01, 2011, 10:32:14 PM
OK well it appears this is something they all will have to work on I was thinking it just might be limited to x10 hopefully they will come up with something, can't see them all going out of business.


Tom j.
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: Noam on September 02, 2011, 10:43:31 AM
The crazy part about it is that most homeowners don't understand the problem.
I've spoken to a lot of people who have "regular" timers, and can't figure out why they don't work with CFL bulbs. Most of them end up leaving one incandescent bulb in the fixture, without knowing why (that's what someone else told them to do). They don't understand that that they need something to pass the current through the timer to make it work.

Some of the newer timers (produced in the past 5 years or so - maybe a bit longer) have a lithium battery in them, and that maintains the clock. The switching is done by either a solid-state switch, or a mechanical relay, powered by the battery. That's one way around the problem (it also helps make the timers more "power outage-proof", as they don't need to be reset, and will turn the lights back on if they should be on at the time the power comes back on).
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: TVRUK on September 02, 2011, 12:50:03 PM
HI there,

Here in Europe (UK for me) the Erocrats have declared that incandescent 60W bulbs can no longer be manufactured in Europe. (100w went his way last year). All that has happened is that the manufacture switched to the far east, and prices went up a little. ::)

The solution for me to be "more energy efficient" was to switch to halogen encapsulated bulbs. (they look like standard incandescents, but with a halogen envelope inside).

For example; 42w Halogen = 65w equivalent incandescent. saves about 1/3 on useage and still works great with X10  :)%

All is not lost....  Keep the faith! -:)

regards

Trevor
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: Noam on September 02, 2011, 12:56:22 PM
That's because halogens are really just modified incandescents. They still have a filament that is directly wired to the incoming circuit, so they provide a direct path through which the switch or timer could run its small amount of current.
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: tom j on September 13, 2011, 05:34:13 PM
Anyone know if I can still get the older Decorator Dimmer Switches without the memory function.  ???


Tom j.
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: dave w on September 13, 2011, 05:49:16 PM
Anyone know if I can still get the older Decorator Dimmer Switches without the memory function.  ???
Tom j.
This doesn't answer your question but is an area to investigate:

Open Question

Has X10 Pro's  XPD3 or XPDI3 switches been upgraded to the Resume Dim, and Soft Start? Any regular forum reader purchased one in the last year or two and can enlighten us?
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: Brian H on September 13, 2011, 06:05:57 PM
Just looked at the latest installation guides for the XPD3 and XPDI3.
Both give information on how soft start and resume dim work in the modules.

So I believe both the XPD3 and XPDI3 have been updated to soft start and resume dim.

Back to the basic what do we do.
There is no mandate requiring CFLs; just a level of effency.
I have energy effency approved 72 watt halogen bulbs that are about as bright as a old style 100 watt incandescent bulb.
They work fine with two wire dimmers.
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: dhouston on September 13, 2011, 07:28:29 PM
There are patents for and even one company developing incandescent bulbs with an IR reflecting coating (transparent to visible light) on the inside of the glass envelope. The IR further heats the filament increasing the efficiency. At least one design could be manufactured on existing incandescent production lines. But, therein lies the problem. It was the light bulb manufacturers who most wanted the new world-wide efficiency standards as there were no profits in $0.25 light bulbs. They financed and co-opted the tree huggers who led the movement but they were always lurking in the background and contributing to politicians re-election funds. The NYT ran an article on this a few months back although over the past few years they mostly ran articles that supported the claims of huge energy savings - purported savings (25%) about 3 times the energy used for residential lighting (9% of residential energy use which is about 30% of total energy use). Industrial, commercial and government buildings have long used mostly tube fluorescents which are far more efficient than CFLs so almost all the savings have to come from residential lighting. Truth is, CFLs might save 2-3% of total energy use if they replace all residential incandescents. I'll try to find the recent NYT link as well as some on the coated bulbs and post them here.
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: Brian H on September 13, 2011, 07:36:46 PM
CFLs also have a lousy power factor. Most are around .5  ::)
Some of the CCFLs I played around with where around .9
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: dave w on September 13, 2011, 07:47:35 PM
The coated bulbs is interesting. But with hotter filament, isn't bulb life shortened?

I am bugged that nanny gov legislates the types of bulbs I can buy...next will be toilet paper.

If nanny gov wants to legislate light bulbs, they should require all traffic lights, nation wide, be switched to LEDs. Typical incandescent traffic lights use bulbs in the neighborhood of 100W, so even a "small" intersection with one center hung traffic light is burning a minimum of 400W continuously. Most intersections are much larger.
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: dhouston on September 13, 2011, 10:01:18 PM
Here's one link. It's about bulbs that use the same principle as CRT. I don't know whether they have actually brought them to market or even what they might cost.

As to the question about the infrared heated filament burning out sooner, one would expect the inventor (David Cunningham, who has numerous lighting patents and is widely respected) thought of that and used a heavier filament. However, I doubt this will make it to market as the companies that once made incandescents prefer the profits they make on CFLs. Here's an article that mentions him as well as an approach developed at Sandia National Labs.

On LED traffic lights, most cities have switched already or are switching as bulbs require replacing.

And here's a link to the NYT article detailing how Philips led the movement to ban incandescents. Before this, most articles on the topic were by environment reporters who were true believers and published the tree hugger propaganda without questioning it.

I forgot to to provide a link to DOE statistics for residential & other energy use. Things have changed. My 9% figure came from about 2007. In 2010 lighting accounts for only 6% of residential energy use so the total energy savings from CFLs are even smaller - 2% if all residential incandescents are replaced by CFLs. In reality, it's probably smaller than a rounding error.
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: HA Dave on September 14, 2011, 01:01:15 AM
....... the companies that once made incandescents prefer the profits they make on CFLs.

I am not sure the evil greedy corporations idea works well here. No CFL were made in America last time I checked. Whereas the old fashion incandescents were manufactured almost regionally. The switch to CFLs is really just a big government, nanny state law.... just like the low volume flush toilets.
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: dhouston on September 14, 2011, 08:10:29 AM
From the NYT article cited above...
Quote
...some years ago, Philips formed a coalition with environmental groups including the Natural Resources Defense Council to push for higher standards. “We felt that we needed to make a call, and show that the best-known lighting technology, the incandescent light bulb, is at the end of its lifetime,” says Harry Verhaar, the company’s head of strategic sustainability initiatives. Philips told its environmental allies it was well positioned to capitalize on the transition to new technologies and wanted to get ahead of an efficiency movement that was gaining momentum abroad and in states like California. Other manufacturers were more wary, but they also understood the downside to selling a ubiquitous commodity: the profit margin on a bulb that sells for a quarter is negligible. After much negotiation, the industry and environmental groups agreed to endorse tightening efficiency by 25 to 30 percent.
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: dhouston on September 14, 2011, 09:17:40 AM
Here are a few more links to articles (shedding light on this heated issue) supporting what I had to say above...

David Cunningham - first link is mostly about him, second about his (and others) work on incandescents

Sandia National Laboratories

I did not mention GE because they have since shelved their HEI (High Efficiency Incandescent) in favor of LEDs
I believe GE was the last company to actually manufacture incandescents in the USA, having plants in Louisville, KY and in Virginia where the HEI could have been manufactured using the same tried and true manufacturing methods. I believe both plants are now closed. GE, of course, was started by Thomas Edison in 1890.

One last point...
VU1's first product targets one of the weak points for both CFLs and LEDs, recessed or canned lights. Their bulb does not generate the heat that the others do (power supply issues) so should last longer but there's little cost saving.  
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: HA Dave on September 14, 2011, 12:40:49 PM
Don't believe EVERYTHING you read.

Actually... I think there is still a couple small southern plants making incandescents... which sell mostly in Mexico. I don't follow this closely... there isn't much need. These (unknown, small name) plants... like potato chip or pretzel factories often make several "brands" which of course is merely packaging. With almost all such commodities... packaging, shipping, and distribution makes up most of the cost... and profit. PLUS... you may not pay $4 for a Dave Brand light bulb.... but slap a name brand on the same bulb with a nice package and the price is more flexible. We all know this!

The idea that the manufacture is in cahoots with oil company's and other such hoaxes are just sad. Most of us ether work for corporations NOW... or have at some time. To imply that we are somehow dishonest, conspiring, or otherwise have disregard for our fellow man is insulting and wrong. I think conspiracy theories, hoaxes, and support or opposition for various flavors of government are fine. But such beliefs are better expressed in blogs... not a HA forum.

BTW... GE was started NOT by Edison... but by investors that saw Edison going bankrupt. Edison remained extremely bitter about the take over till very late in his life when he finally visited GE headquarters (which I believe was a paid promotional visit). Edison was a brillint man with a fine creative mind. But his understanding of business was deplorable.
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: Brian H on September 14, 2011, 12:58:25 PM
The Sylvania Super Saver bulbs that are compliant with the 2012 rules. I recently bought. Have a Made In The USA marker on the box.
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: dhouston on September 14, 2011, 01:29:57 PM
BTW... GE was started NOT by Edison... but by investors that saw Edison going bankrupt.
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: dhouston on September 14, 2011, 01:45:05 PM
CFLs also have a lousy power factor. Most are around .5  ::)
Agreed, but some are better than others. It's a shame they didn't require a minimum PF in their laws. I forgot to make the PF point because, for most of us, the waste caused by low power factor, doesn't mean a great deal since we don't pay for it directly in our monthly bill. The utility companies do, however, need heavier infrastructure to handle the higher currents. 
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: HA Dave on September 14, 2011, 04:35:29 PM
http://www.ge.com/company/history/edison.html[/li][/list]

Yes... if you take the time to actually read. GE even paid Edison to appear at Corp Hq... in his later years. It benefits GE to have a friendly image. Plus... his investors saved his butt by establishing GE... a huge favor to him... as well as protecting many jobs and their own investments. No one stuck a gun to his head... so sure you could say he chose to establish GE... as opposed to having all his accesses seized.

I have found it better to read history from history books... as opposed to go to a corporations Web Page. You can't just makeup your own version of history... to support silly conspiracy theories and hoaxes.

The American people who work at American corporations are generally speaking honest and hard working. To imply that they are somehow dishonest, conspiring, corrupt, or otherwise have a disregard for their fellow man is insulting and wrong. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Your intentions here are transparent. Why don't you just blame CFL's on George Bush and the military industrial complex... this is stupid!
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: msauto on September 14, 2011, 05:11:22 PM
Not sure if this is relevant but I'm gonna put it out there
I know that x10's lamp modules say no floeresents but I never have been one to except everything someone says(Sometimes I really mess things up) :'
Any way I am currently setting up x10 automation in a 40 x 80 commercial shop
I have installed a male plug on 5 dual florescent shop lights one plug on main lead feeding 3 with 2 60 watt bulbs per and 1 plug on other 2 with 60 watt bulbs so as not to go over the 500 mark
anyway i installed lamp modules on each and so far they work flawlessly.
I am on a rural electric provider in Oklahoma(not sure i can legally say there name)
Not sure if this is relevant.
I no it's not supposed to work but it is and very cheap I mite add. >! -:)
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: dave w on September 14, 2011, 05:31:31 PM
Not sure if this is relevant but I'm gonna put it out there
I know that x10's lamp modules say no floeresents but I never have been one to except everything someone says(Sometimes I really mess things up) :'
Any way I am currently setting up x10 automation in a 40 x 80 commercial shop
I have installed a male plug on 5 dual florescent shop lights one plug on main lead feeding 3 with 2 60 watt bulbs per and 1 plug on other 2 with 60 watt bulbs so as not to go over the 500 mark
anyway i installed lamp modules on each and so far they work flawlessly.
I am on a rural electric provider in Oklahoma(not sure i can legally say there name)
Not sure if this is relevant.
I no it's not supposed to work but it is and very cheap I mite add. >! -:)
FWIW
Better to use an Appliance Module.
It is a bad idea to use Lamp Modules on Fluorescent fixtures. My guess is; they must have solid state ballasts which *can be* tolerant of the distortion a triac dimmer imposes on the  AC sine wave. My $0.02 is: Try one fixture with out a LM and one with, check the fixtures after an hour. If both fixtures are about the same temperature around the ballast area, you are probably OK as long as no one accidentally DIMs the modules. Neither solid state, nor magnetic ballasts will like that. It isn't that "it won't work" it is that triac dimmers always adds a bit of distortion on the AC line, and the "distortion" dramatically increases as the light is dimmed. Incandescent lights don't give a rip about the distortion, just about everything else does.
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: Brian H on September 14, 2011, 06:00:46 PM
When they go bang or smoking. Don't say we didn't warn you.
You also can't just add the wattages and say it is less then 500 watts. You are driving most likely an electronic ballast.
Also the new soft start lamp modules will slowly apply and remove the AC as they ramp on and off. Another good way to make magic smoke or go bang.

Just because it seems to work. Does not mean it is safe.
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: HA Dave on September 14, 2011, 06:02:00 PM
The Sylvania Super Saver bulbs that are compliant with the 2012 rules. I recently bought. Have a Made In The USA marker on the box.

Great! So be honest... do YOU really think those bulbs were made in an United States of America factory? Or are you going to claim not to understand the value added import rules?

You know full well as do most other adults that those bulbs were made in China and imported to America in bulk. Tranported to Mexico along with the American made bubble package to be packaged and transported back to America, again in bulk. Then repacked into marketable cases in America and sent to distribution points (warehouses). The value added import rules allow for that to be called "Made In The USA".

It isn't just CFL's that skirt those import rules to carry the "Made In The USA" label. But pretending is for kids.

Look... I am NOT trying to give anyone a hard time. And I have no desire to go into how the State Department has become a multigeneration repository of civil servants. Negotiating deals and influencing laws that benefits careers more than national interests. Nor will I rant on about why IP addresses aren't recorded on low dollar Internet political contributions.  

But CFL's, low-volume flush toilets, allowing you teen daughter to be felt-up at airports.... all (and more) are liberal government intrusion into our life's.
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: Brian H on September 14, 2011, 06:04:00 PM
I have no idea if they skirted around some loop hole.
Seems to be the norm these days.
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: HA Dave on September 14, 2011, 06:30:43 PM
I have no idea if they skirted around some loop hole.

Two different investors wanted to build faculty's in South Carolina to make CFL's. Both had received State approval. The EPA rejected the required permits even after construction plans were well under way. There is a long list of products that the EPA doesn't allow to be made on America's soil. Every year that list grows longer... and longer. CFL's are on that list.

In Ohio... where I live... I know of two GE plants that make "light bulbs". Nether factory makes what would be called anything like a household light. Both plants make speciality lights.
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: dave w on September 14, 2011, 08:12:30 PM

Great! So be honest... do YOU really think those bulbs were made in an United States of America factory? Or are you going to claim not to understand the value added import rules?


But CFL's, low-volume flush toilets, allowing you teen daughter to be felt-up at airports.... all (and more) are liberal government intrusion into our life's.
FWIW
Unless things have changed "Made in USA" must be (mostly) made in USA, versus "Assembled in USA" which is so broad that packing Chinese bulbs in American printed boxes would probably qualify.

BTW Dave, you will be relieved to know that Big Sis has promised to grope small children less.....I'm pretty sure she was referring to the TSA.
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: HA Dave on September 14, 2011, 10:07:37 PM
..."Made in USA" must be (mostly) made in USA, versus "Assembled in USA" which is so broad that packing Chinese bulbs in American printed boxes would probably qualify.

Now it is only "value added". Packaging can be 80% of value. (How much would you pay for a dozen eggs... you have to carry home in your hands?). So merely using illegal labor to put shipped bins of almost any goods into marketable 12 or 24 pack cases on US soil... could be considered as Made in America. Particularly if the one point of the process was completed (as in the bubble packaging in Mexico) in a NAFTA (North American Free Trade Agreement) country.

Don't get me wrong... I use CFL's and have since 1998. I am NOT against CFL's. I am against advocating hoaxes. I think some people see the spread of hoaxes as fun or cute... like a practical joke. Maybe I am just too serious. Maybe those folks that once earned their living making light bulbs... see real humor in rumors that they now make more money making CFL's. Maybe they Laugh Out Loud as their homes are foreclosed on. Maybe it's just me that doesn't see the humor.

Lighting makes up a small part of most homes electrical use (on average about 12%). So even if you cut the usage in half using CFL's or LEDs (which I have).... the saving is more intellectual... than economical.

I know a mature lady who disposed of her remote phones because of a recent hoax that tells people those little wall-warts that powered them use power 24/7 and can add up to hundreds of dollar a year. She put at risk her very safety because of a stupid hoax. Of course... there is a tiny element of truth as such devices do use tiny amounts of electric all the time. But the cost is Penny's... if that.

There isn't a big difference between stealing your car.... or stealing from you your knowledge... or the truth. Truth and knowledge have value as much as does tangible property.
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: dhouston on September 20, 2011, 04:16:17 PM
It's time to ban the ban. -:)
Title: Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
Post by: Sammer on September 21, 2011, 12:09:20 AM
The Sylvania Super Saver bulbs that are compliant with the 2012 rules. I recently bought. Have a Made In The USA marker on the box.

Yes they are really made at a plant in St. Marys, PA that has been there a very long time. Despite it being legal to hunt elk within the city limits of St. Marys the last I heard northern Pennsylvania was still in the USA. Osram Sylvania has some other plants around the country too but I'm not sure about what they make at those.