X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: dspiffy on April 27, 2017, 01:59:36 AM
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Still working on the lighting in my new house.
I have 3 lamps controlled by X10 lighting modules (though appliance modules have the same issue) that, when turned off, still light at about half brightness. They were advertised as not dimmable but dim properly with the lamp modules.
I doubt anyone here can answer this question, but am I risking the bulbs by allowing them to glow in the off position?
Also, does anyone have the information for disabling the local control in lamp modules? I have found it for plug in appliance modules. here I have one plug in lamp module and one hard wire (labeled Leviton)
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Local Control Sensing maybe keeping the LED bulbs glowing with older Lamp and Appliance Modules.
A quick test to see if it is Local Control Sensing. Is get a power tap so both the LED bulb in question and a small 4 watt incandescent night light are both on the Lamp Modules outlet. If the LED stops glowing you have Local Control sensing.
The Lamp Module does it go On and Off fast or ramp on and off?
The older Lamp Modules {on and off fast} have local control sensing and there is modification instructions to remove it.
Same for the older before CFL friendly appliance modules.
Newer Soft Start modules ramp on and off at a few second rate.
The Soft Start Lamp Modules do have Local Control Sensing. They where redesigned and the current is much lower than the older ones. Giving less issues with many loads.
I have not seen modifications for the Soft Start Lamp Modules.
The CFL friendly Appliance module where supposed to no longer have Local Control Sensing.
I will try and find an active web site with the needed instructions. As some of the sites are now gone.
As for the Leviton. Is it a two wire switch {Line and Load but no Neutral connection}. They steal power through the load and are strictly made for 120 volt Incandescent and 120 volt halogen bulbs. The power being stolen through the LED bulb is keeping it glowing and I doubt it can be corrected. Unless you have a neutral power wire in the switch box and are capable of doing the modification to add one to the Leviton.
Can you hurt the LED bulbs not rated for dimmers with a dimmer. Always a possibility as they are not made for dimmer to drive them.
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There is some information on the older Lamp and Wall Switch. Modifications here: http://www.laureanno.com/x10-mods.html
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Try a dimmable LED and see if it glows. Mine do not (Sylvania brand) and I am running some of them on two wire switches. As Brian stated; a non dimmable LED should NOT be controlled by a dimmer. Even when full ON (not dimmed) the AC waveform from any dimmer (not just a Lamp Module) has a slight distortion, this could shorten the life of non-dimmable bulbs. A dimmable LED or CFL are designed to deal with the wave form distortion.
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This borders on hijacking but it is still a dimmable LED issue. I can start another thread if need be. Here is a link to a short video of what a camera sees when the outdoor lights are turned on. It happens at all brightnesses but the bulbs do turn off completely.
However, the naked eye sees a flickering bulb unless it is off or at 100%. Anywhere in-between it is incessantly flickering as if it is 20Hz or even less. There are four LED bulbs, 8watt, 75watt equiv. This is not on an X10 dimmer at this time, it's on a zwave dimmer module. If I remove the zwave module and install a conventional dimmer switch, the bulbs go from a max of about 50% to maybe 20% over the top 1/2 of the slider switch. The bottom third of the slider switch then does nothing until you get to off.
Later on today I'm going to connect a soft start X10 dimmer as a test and see what those results are.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwLDOd7qIhnsRENTa0FrN0o4X1E
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There is some information on the older Lamp and Wall Switch. Modifications here: http://www.laureanno.com/x10-mods.html
Thanks, I see the lamp module, but not the hard wired module.
It looks like these, except the code switches are on the sides, not the top:
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Px8AAOxy-j9SSHAe/s-l300.jpg
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Try a dimmable LED and see if it glows. Mine do not (Sylvania brand) and I am running some of them on two wire switches. As Brian stated; a non dimmable LED should NOT be controlled by a dimmer. Even when full ON (not dimmed) the AC waveform from any dimmer (not just a Lamp Module) has a slight distortion, this could shorten the life of non-dimmable bulbs. A dimmable LED or CFL are designed to deal with the wave form distortion.
None of the dimmable LEDs I have glow, but all of the dimmable LEDs I have are 5 watts or more. The non dimmable LEDs I have that are 5 watts are more also do not glow. Those that are less than 5 watts, do.
Normally when I test a non dimmable LED on a dimmer it blinks. These dim smoothly.
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The Leviton Fixture Modules are the 6375 Relay and 6376 Dimmer.
I have not seen any specific modifications for them.
I found links to both and the dials are on each side.
The product page for them is on a links below.
http://www.levitonproducts.com/catalog/model_6375.htm
http://www.twacomm.com/catalog/model_6376.htm
Since X10WTI probably made the Leviton Modules. If you find any modifications for the X10Pro XPDF and XPFM they maybe similar.
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Those that are less than 5 watts, do. {glow}
Sorry, I did not understand that the LEDs you were were less than five watts, when questioning whether the glow when the module is off would harm the bulb. If they are that small I doubt they have a power suplly any more complicated than diodes and resistors. I doubt letting them glow will have any affect on bulb life.
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Those that are less than 5 watts, do. {glow}
Sorry, I did not understand that the LEDs you were were less than five watts, when questioning whether the glow when the module is off would harm the bulb. If they are that small I doubt they have a power suplly any more complicated than diodes and resistors. I doubt letting them glow will have any affect on bulb life.
I didnt go into a lot of detail on the bulbs because I didnt assume anyone here was an LED expert. You seem to be.
I wrongly assumed these were under 5w:
http://lightyournight.com/product/kichler-7-watt-led-par20-lamp/
Putting a single one of these on an X10 module results in a faint flickering when the module is off. Multiples work fine. A single of the PAR30 version works fine.
Wrongly assumed these were less than 5w-- I ordered the 8w version. With a single bulb on a module, you hear a faint ticking from the bulb when the module is off, but cant see any light. Didnt try multiple bulbs.
I discontinued operation on both of those, but I have no choice by to use X10 on these:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N0UL1RC/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I have one on one module and two on another. They're advertised as not dimmable, and even the box says "not dimmable", but they dim beautifully on X10. However when the modules are off, they are still on at about half brightness.
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I didnt go into a lot of detail on the bulbs because I didnt assume anyone here was an LED expert. You seem to be.
I have one on one module and two on another. They're advertised as not dimmable, and even the box says "not dimmable", but they dim beautifully on X10. However when the modules are off, they are still on at about half brightness.
Nope, not an expert by any means.
The Kichler bulbs have three high power LED so likely does have a more sophisticated power supply. If the flicker does not bother you, and they seem to work OK when dimmed, I would at least dim to about 60%-70% and check the reflector heat sink, near the base, for excessive heat.
I have some larger Kichler spots, not in use (big sale at Menards). I will play with them on a lamp module and see if they act silly.
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I didnt go into a lot of detail on the bulbs because I didnt assume anyone here was an LED expert. You seem to be.
I have one on one module and two on another. They're advertised as not dimmable, and even the box says "not dimmable", but they dim beautifully on X10. However when the modules are off, they are still on at about half brightness.
Nope, not an expert by any means.
The Kichler bulbs have three high power LED so likely does have a more sophisticated power supply. If the flicker does not bother you, and they seem to work OK when dimmed, I would at least dim to about 60%-70% and check the reflector heat sink, near the base, for excessive heat.
I have some larger Kichler spots, not in use (big sale at Menards). I will play with them on a lamp module and see if they act silly.
That's exactly where I got them, Menards on clearance. I have myriad PAR20s and PAR30s.
A single PAR20 flickers. Two or more is fine. A single PAR30 is fine. Two PAR30s will turn back on when turned off. Three or more is fine.
At this point, I just matched them to what works. I have one PAR30 on an appliance module, another 3 PAR30s on a different appliance module.
The little 0.8watters on the other hand, I dont have any option other than to put them on lamp modules.
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The Kichlers are NOT dimmable BTW.
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Finding LED bulbs that work with X10 and other protocol modules. Can be a challenge.
Sometimes even the same manufacturers part can vary.
I have some Feit A1600/830/10KLED/2 13 Watt 100 watt equivalent non-dimmamabe.
I have some Feit A1600/830/10KLED/2(L) 14.7 Watts 100 watt equivalent non-dimmamabe.
The boxes and bulbs look identical. If you didn't read the actual part numbers it can be easily missed.
With an Insteon ApplianceLinc module with an X10 address added. Has Local Control Sensing set to ignore.
The earlier ones I bought are 100% fine. On and Off no issues.
The last batch {(L)suffix} when the module is off. They pulse On every few seconds with a brief flash.
Have some dimmable Philips 12E26A60 EnduraLED and 12E26A60-1 EnduraLED LED Bulbs.
Philips changed the designed to use less LEDs and use brighter one for the same Lumen output.
The electronics where changed to drive the different LED assembly. Act 100% different from each other
on X10 and Insteon dimmers.
One other point. X10 and X10Pro dimmers have a minimum wattage specification. I have seen many say 40 watts and a few say 60 watts.
I may try my Switch Infinia LED bulbs with X10 modules. They are the only ones I have ever seen with liquid cooling material inside the shell.
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A single PAR20 flickers. Two or more is fine. A single PAR30 is fine. Two PAR30s will turn back on when turned off. Three or more is fine.
At this point, I just matched them to what works. I have one PAR30 on an appliance module, another 3 PAR30s on a different appliance module.
Flickering and coming back ON can be fixed with a 4 or 7 watt incandescent nightlight IF you have the room in the fixture for the nightlight and the "outlet adaptor socket". Or if they are plug-in lights, plug the nightlight in an extension cord with the LED light.
I do not recommend this but I have a couple of ceiling fans that would re-trigger the controlling wire-in Appliance Module back on as soon as I turned them off. I think it was motor EMF confusing the module. I put a 33K, 3 watt resistor across the fan motor leads. I used 3 watt, flame proof, film resistors I found on Ebay. I would not use anything less than 3 watts, although the actual power through the resistor is only about half a watt.
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A single PAR20 flickers. Two or more is fine. A single PAR30 is fine. Two PAR30s will turn back on when turned off. Three or more is fine.
At this point, I just matched them to what works. I have one PAR30 on an appliance module, another 3 PAR30s on a different appliance module.
Flickering and coming back ON can be fixed with a 4 or 7 watt incandescent nightlight IF you have the room in the fixture for the nightlight and the "outlet adaptor socket". Or if they are plug-in lights, plug the nightlight in an extension cord with the LED light.
I do not recommend this but I have a couple of ceiling fans that would re-trigger the controlling wire-in Appliance Module back on as soon as I turned them off. I think it was motor EMF confusing the module. I put a 33K, 3 watt resistor across the fan motor leads (parallel with motor, not in series ) . I used 3 watt, flame proof, film resistors I found on Ebay. I would not use anything less than 3 watts, although the actual power through the resistor is only about half a watt.
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Adding incandescent nightlight bulbs to circuits powering LED nightlight bulbs defeats the purpose of switching to LED.
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Adding incandescent nightlight bulbs to circuits powering LED nightlight bulbs defeats the purpose of switching to LED.
This is the first time you actually stated you are using X10 modules to power LED nightlights. I thought you were powering PAR 20s and 30s. Yep using a 4 watt incandescent bulb to stop the flickering of a LED nightlight drawing a fraction of a watt, ain't very smart.
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Adding incandescent nightlight bulbs to circuits powering LED nightlight bulbs defeats the purpose of switching to LED.
This is the first time you actually stated you are using X10 modules to power LED nightlights. I thought you were powering PAR 20s and 30s. Yep using a 4 watt incandescent bulb to stop the flickering of a LED nightlight drawing a fraction of a watt, ain't very smart.
I posted the following before but it probably got lost in all the other discussion:
I discontinued operation on (the problematic PAR20 and PAR30 installations,) but I have no choice by to use X10 on these:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N0UL1RC/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I have one on one module and two on another. They're advertised as not dimmable, and even the box says "not dimmable", but they dim beautifully on X10. However when the modules are off, they are still on at about half brightness.
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Since we have covered a few different modules.
Are we presently talking about older before Soft Start LM465s?
I looked at the LED bulbs in the Amazon Link you provided
They are a .8 watt bulb. That is .0066 Amps current when fully On.
The Local Sensing current from an older LM465 is about .0016 Amps.
Depending on the bulbs electronics it is very possible they will glow.
I have tried a few different small LED bulbs on LM465s and many do glow.
I have modified a Black and Decker FWLR Lamp Module made by X10 with a different case.
Circuit board is basically the same as an old LM465.
To eliminate all the Local Sensing Current and my small LED bulbs do not glow.
I can post details and a hand updated schematic if you are interested.
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Since we have covered a few different modules.
Are we presently talking about older before Soft Start LM465s?
I looked at the LED bulbs in the Amazon Link you provided
They are a .8 watt bulb. That is .0066 Amps current when fully On.
The Local Sensing current from an older LM465 is about .0016 Amps.
Depending on the bulbs electronics it is very possible they will glow.
I have tried a few different small LED bulbs on LM465s and many do glow.
I have modified a Black and Decker FWLR Lamp Module made by X10 with a different case.
Circuit board is basically the same as an old LM465.
To eliminate all the Local Sensing Current and my small LED bulbs do not glow.
I can post details and a hand updated schematic if you are interested.
My modules range from 1980s to recent but none are soft start.
Any schematics are appreciated.
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They are a .8 watt bulb. That is .0066 Amps current when fully On.
Gee, that may be less power than the X10 module that controls it. Why not just leave it on?
Jeff
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You may want to keep an eye on your LED bulbs for awhile when running from an LM465 even at 100% On.
I was using a low power LED for some tests with the modified LM465. It seemed to dim fine. I left it On at 100% and a hour or so later it was Off and smelled like something was burning. Another model bulb has been fine so far.
The LM465 is a 120 volt AC powered device. If you are not capable to do electrical modifications safely
Don't do it.
This is for the older LM465 modules and I have not done long term tests for problems.
Remove D10, R6 and R3.
Marked up schematic from a web page download.
The parts ID matched the silk screening on the PCB.
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They are a .8 watt bulb. That is .0066 Amps current when fully On.
Gee, that may be less power than the X10 module that controls it. Why not just leave it on?
Jeff
Because they are bright and we have several of them in lamps in our living room and sometimes we want it dark.
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If you get any of the Soft Start LM465s.
R14 330K 1/2W can be removed to kill the Local Control Sensing.
The Soft Start LM465 are a completely different design from the older ones. I have found they are not as tolerant to lower than specified minimum wattage loads and some brand LED's. Mine also do not dim all the way down, with any type load, to 0% more like 30%.
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If you get any of the Soft Start LM465s.
R14 330K 1/2W can be removed to kill the Local Control Sensing.
The Soft Start LM465 are a completely different design from the older ones. I have found they are not as tolerant to lower than specified minimum wattage loads and some brand LED's. Mine also do not dim all the way down, with any type load, to 0% more like 30%.
Kind of surprising, but I have yet to encounter any of the soft starts.
I buy all my new X10 stuff from Big John. Not sure if you guys know him. He's given the museum some great prices and fast shipping.
I have some plug and power stuff I've had since I was a kid in the early 80s. The Leviton stuff I found at a thrift store. I also have a few other modules and controllers I bought used on eBay.
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Yes some of the regulars here. Know Big John's online store.
Soft Start was introduced in 2007 for Lamp Modules and Wall Switches.
http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/SoftStart
Wall switches also have Preset Dim.
http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/SoftStart
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Update:
The 0.8w LED bulbs, I have put as many as (4) on a single lamp module and they still are dim when off. Adding more bulbs on the same module makes them negligibly dimmer. A barely noticeable difference. They dont seem to create any issues with the bulbs or modules and for now I'm just living with it. Since the lamps in question are all designed to be decorative more than functional it's not problematic yet. Right now I have 10 of them in operation on 3 modules.
The Kichler PAR30's . . . I have two on one appliance (since the bulbs are not dimmable) module along with an offbrand R20 that IS dimmable. With the module off, the R20 ALSO glows dim, even with the other two larger bulbs in the circuit. When I disconnect the PAR20, I can no longer turn off the module. When I turn it off from either controller, a few seconds pass and it cycles back on. I am going to try swapping the bulbs and the module.
I havent found instructions on how to disable the local control circuit on the appliance modules or the non standard lamp modules.
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I have changed the bulbs (to other identical bulbs) and the module (to another identical module) and the issue persists. It does not do it with one bulb at a time, nor does it do it with three.
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I have changed the bulbs (to other identical bulbs) and the module (to another identical module) and the issue persists. It does not do it with one bulb at a time, nor does it do it with three.
I was wrong, it does it with three non dimmable LEDs. It does not do it if one of the LEDs is dimmable.
So far a solution I've found is to plug a 3 outlet tap into the module that has a neon indicator light. Dollar Tree used to sell them, not sure if they still do. The neon light draws less than 1/4 watt.
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The small neon light. Is enough of a load to lower or kill the small sensing current. Allowing the LED bulbs to function.
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Ok so that module stayed off for close to 24 hours with the neon pilot light power tap in the circuit. JUST turned itself on.
I need a better solution.
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A neon pilot light. Has a turn On voltage of between 65 and 90 volts due to the characteristics of a neon bulb.
So any sensing current that did not cause the off voltage on the outlet to be high enough. Would not load down the sensing voltages. As it was not conducting.
In theory. When the voltage got high enough and the neon bulb started to conduct. It could have triggered the Local Control Sensing and it went On.
A 33K {33,000 Ohm} 3 Watt flame retardant resistor. Safely wired into an AC plug. Added to the power tap in a plug was mentioned by dave w. That would work and when On would draw an extra .44 Watts.
Removing the Local Control Sensing components inside the Lamp module is another way that may work.
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A neon pilot light. Has a turn On voltage of between 65 and 90 volts due to the characteristics of a neon bulb.
So any sensing current that did not cause the off voltage on the outlet to be high enough. Would not load down the sensing voltages. As it was not conducting.
In theory. When the voltage got high enough and the neon bulb started to conduct. It could have triggered the Local Control Sensing and it went On.
A 33K {33,000 Ohm} 3 Watt flame retardant resistor. Safely wired into an AC plug. Added to the power tap in a plug was mentioned by dave w. That would work and when On would draw an extra .44 Watts.
Removing the Local Control Sensing components inside the Lamp module is another way that may work.
This is an appliance module. I have been looking for instructions to disable local control for an appliance module, or a schematic of one, but havent found it.
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I believe yours are the older models, before X10 made the Appliance Modules CFL friendly. I usually cut both the Diode and the Jumper in them.
http://www.laureanno.com/x10-mod3.html
One thing even with the Local Control Sensing disabled. There is still a very small amount of current on the output. From the circuit that determines if the alternate action switch {the clunking sound it makes} is On or off. If you disable that current. The appliance module does not know if it is On or Off. So it pulses the switch and output On and Off. A few times trying to change from On or Off. Giving the sounds like a machine gun action and pulsing Load On and Off. ::)
I attached a scan of a marked up schematic in the above link. As the one I traces out has a different sensing circuit.
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I believe yours are the older models, before X10 made the Appliance Modules CFL friendly. I usually cut both the Diode and the Jumper in them.
http://www.laureanno.com/x10-mod3.html
One thing even with the Local Control Sensing disabled. There is still a very small amount of current on the output. From the circuit that determines if the alternate action switch {the clunking sound it makes} is On or off. If you disable that current. The appliance module does not know if it is On or Off. So it pulses the switch and output On and Off. A few times trying to change from On or Off. Giving the sounds like a machine gun action and pulsing Load On and Off. ::)
I attached a scan of a marked up schematic in the above link. As the one I traces out has a different sensing circuit.
That website is awesome! I will try some of the mods tonight.
I had already ordered some 33k resistors as well and I will probably try that on a different module.
I emailed Leviton as well, if they can send me a schematic of their modules I can probably figure out how to translate the mods, in addition to fixing the two failed ones I have.
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So I got a spare appliance module and clipped the jumper and 1N4004. Before swapping it with the module currently in place I tried to replicate the problem. NOW it wont do it.
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I couldnt get the issue to replicate before swapping modules, but I swapped modules anyway. If the lights dont come back on in 24 hours I'll consider it a success.
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Hope it works for you.
I doubt Leviton will give you any schematics. Though floating around on some of the automation web sites there maybe a copy.
I believe some of the Leviton X10 protocol ones where made by X10WTI to their specifications and their labels.
Ed Cheung has some X10 projects and data on his web site.
http://www.edcheung.com/automa/ha.htm
Dave Houston has a lot of very good data on his site also.
https://www.laser.com/dhouston/
Unfortunately The Home Automation Database by IdoBarTana is no longer in service. Was a great site for information.
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They replied, they will not send the schematics.
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Running into a similar issue using X10 modules to control small appliances with DC switching power supplies.
Snipped the jumper and the diode, there is much LESS leakage, but still leakage.
Have seen on this site to also snip one of the 330k resistors, but there are two, anyone know which one?
(The good news is this now makes for a total of 5 mini controllers and 16 modules in the house, more during Christmas time.)
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Running into a similar issue using X10 modules to control small appliances with DC switching power supplies.
Snipped the jumper and the diode, there is much LESS leakage, but still leakage.
Have seen on this site to also snip one of the 330k resistors, but there are two, anyone know which one?
(The good news is this now makes for a total of 5 mini controllers and 16 modules in the house, more during Christmas time.)
You can't kill all of the small current. The Appliance Module has a sensor in it to detect if the ratchet switch is On or Off.
If you kill the On Off sensor. It can't determine if it is On or off and tries a few time to change. Resulting in a machine gun set of ratchets.
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Ok, I will try the 33k resistor trick instead.
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Actually, with the diode and jumper cut, the leakage current should be significantly less. I bet I can use a much higher value than 33k.
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Yes you should be able to go to a higher resistance value.
The 33K is running at about 1/2 Watt and why we suggested a 1 watt or higher. For a safety margin.
Can't give you a value off hand but 100K maybe a value to test.
The newly designed CFL Friendly Appliance Module that does not have local control. Just the On Off sensor runs at about .36Ma.
The old design was over 2mA with a DC component because of the diode.
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100k 1/2w worked, FWIW.