X10 Community Forum
🖥️ActiveHome Pro => ActiveHome Pro General => Software Problems & Bugs => Topic started by: johnn on May 07, 2005, 05:29:29 PM
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I seem to be one of the few people on this
forum that has a working system. However,
I made a very minor modification to my
program and encountered a poltergeist.
Specifically, my gremlin is a very simple
macro that will not execute when triggered
by the interface, but, works perfectly when
run from the computer (“Run Macro” button
pushed) or by the Palmpal. I can see that
the macro is being triggered (flashes on
screen) by the interface, but, the commands
do not execute. The activity monitor shows
that the trigger signal was sent. I would
like to send you the “possessed” file to
see if another interface responds the same
way. This problem is absolutely repeatable
and I’ve tried everything that I could
think of to get it to work. One other
supernatural thing is that when I do
execute the macro from the PC or Palmpal
a “ghost” RF command is “received” and
retransmitted by the CM-15A. I know it’s a
ghost, because I can see it in the Activity
Monitor every time I execute the command.
The specifics of my system are AHP version
3.186 with Smart Macros and a 05C10 version
of the CM-15A. I’m running XP SP-1 and
have virtually no problems with the
software. My system is of moderate
complexity and has 10 modules, 3 motion
sensors, 11 timers and 24 macros.
I’m fairly experienced and am sure this is
some kind of bug. Please let me know how
to send you this file and a more detailed
explanation that is specific to my program.
I have captured the ghost commands in a
copy of my activity monitor, which I would
also like to send to you.
Thanks.
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I am having the identical problem.
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Hi Gerry,
Nice to know I'm not the only one to have a
haunted CM-15A. Let’s see if X10PRO will
be able to find the magic spell to rid our
units of their gremlins.
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Also having similar problems and am getting
nowhere fast with any kind of assistance
with X10Pro. Starting to get the feeling
that he/she/they are no longer responding
to posts or requests for help.
Hopefully, they are reading the posts and
are making fixes.
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Good luck guys, this is why I jumped ship
and went with another product. I went 6
weeks with cronic problems and no help no
matter what avenue I took, posts here,
calls to tech support or emailing tech
support. I got zero help.
T.
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Hi,
In my own biased opion, the AH software
is 'beta' quality. 'beta' is a term given to
software that is not de-bugged enough to
sell as 'production (alpha)' software.
Generally the people who write the stuff
will offer it, 'as is', for a reduced price.
The users must then report all bugs as a
condition of being 'beta' testers.
Well, guess what? We are all testing 'non-
production' level software (and hardware).
To get back on track. I REALLY needed some
hardware and software that is reliable.
I ended up with a 'SmartHome' USB PLC
controller and their 'SmartHome Manager
Plus' software.
I have great expectations for X10, BUT, I am
worried about a home security system
and 'beta' just ain't part of it.
Regards to all,
Ken
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I had a similar problem (reported elsewhere
in the forums). A macro wasn't working from
the remote, and there were unusual entries
showing up in activity monitor whenever I
issued an RF command.
Here's roughly what was in place:
Macro A1 (On)
H12 On
Delay 00:01:30 (90 seconds)
H12 Off
A1 is triggered by an MS12A motion sensor.
H12 would turn on just fine, but it
wouldn't go off.
This is what is so bizarre -
If I used a PALMPAD to manually turn
H12 off, I would see something like this
in activity monitor:
H12
H12 Off
Macro RF A000TV (or something similar)
This would appear in activity log
EVERY time I turned H12 OFF with the
palmpad.
I didn't have any macros designed to
trigger on H12. . .
I deleted both the module and the macro,
and re-created them, and the problem went
away.
T
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Tigger,
Your problem does sound similar to Gerry’s
and mine. I also discovered that I could
bring a Zombie module to life (one that
isn’t responding) simply turning the module
on or off or brightening or dimming it.
I’ve tried all that with my current macro,
but it’s still non responsive. I haven’t
tried deleting the macro, however, I will.
I have seen the phantom responses before,
however, there doesn’t seem to be any
consistency around their appearance. I’m
hoping that X10PRO will take my file and
possibly Gerry’s and others to see if their
CM-15’s exhibit the same behavior. Perhaps
by collecting enough of these programs X10
can figure out what the problem is.
Like most of the folks on this forum, I’ve
had many challenges getting AHP to work.
However, unlike some I have had a system
functioning for quite a while. So, I’m
hooked.
I have to agree with Ken Miller, tcassio
and David K that X10 has it’s hands full
getting AHP to a stable state and that both
hardware and software have far more
problems than any other product I have ever
purchased. I have found X10’s customer
support to be quite helpful, given that you
have patience. This is my first attempt at
getting technical help… we will see what
happens.
I followed the forum for a while, before
purchasing so I knew going in that there
were issues. Like others on the forum, I
purchased AHP as part of a package so from
my perspective it was essentially free.
Perhaps at some point I too will give up
and move on… for now I’ll just do what I
can to try and help get it stable.
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I'm here now (I was out of town for a bit --
sorry for not posting a notice here), and am
processing all the data that's here. I have
David K's e-mail, and a few others. We're
working on this stuff, and hopefully will
have something soon.
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X10Pro
Thanks for responding. I assumed you were
out, since I hadn’t seen a post from you
for a while. Glad to hear it was travel
and not a medical issue. Please let me
know if there is anything I can do to help.
For now my system is down due to excessive
noise on my power lines. Something
suddenly started coming in on the power
that is swamping my CM-15A and TM-751 PLC
signals. I can’t get anything to respond
to either the CM-15a or the TM-751. When I
look at the activity monitor I see a
constant B7 on – off sequence.
I’ve contacted my power company, but given
the nature of the problem, I’m not too
hopeful that I’ll get their attention.
I’ve started to research things that I can
do at my panel to block he noise. Any
thoughts or suggestions, based on your
experience, would be greatly appreciated.
I’m new to X10, but have been around
technology for a long time.
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JohnN
How you determinate that is power line
noise?
I use an Oscilloscope + a meter from Elk
Products for troubleshooting. Recently I
had experienced a loss of signal, it
turnout that those cute white LED night
light I had purchased, were attenuating the
signal by more than 30% each.
If you not already have one I would install
a coupler blocker on the main electrical
panel there are many choices on the market
from different vendors, some have signal
booster capability.
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Carmine,
Part 2 of 2
So, my logic (and it may be flawed) is that
if every line in my house was turned off
and both the CM-15a and TM751 are not able
to control any of the 9 modules I have
installed either all 9 modules failed
simultaneously or I’m getting one whopping
continuous signal on the power line. I’m
also assuming that if one of the modules or
a night light was causing the problem,
because of a sudden failure, then the
system should have worked when I turned
that circuit off.
Since I had such a “clean” system, I hadn’t
installed either a coupler or blocker. I
was able to control modules on either phase
reliably without a coupler… before Sunday.
I’m now researching blockers and would
appreciate any thoughts that you have on
them or any experience with good or bad
ones. Also, if I’m missing anything I
would honestly appreciate your thoughts.
Needless to say, I’m totally frustrated.
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Carmine,
Part 1 of 2
Thanks for the response and help. I don’t
have access to an Oscilloscope and haven’t
yet purchased a meter. So, I arrived at my
conclusion through observation and
deductive reasoning.
First, my system has been flawless, with
regard to operating modules, up till last
Sunday morning. Suddenly, nothing worked.
The activity monitor on the CM-15a
indicated that it was receiving a
continuous PLC signal and interpreting it
as alternate B7 on then off commands. The
on-off cycles do not allow the CM-15a to
process rf commands from any of my 4
Palmpals. The CM-15a doesn't seem to be
able to process anything else. and the
signal is there 24 hours a day.
I then tried using my TM751 to operate my
modules using the Palmpals. Again, no
response. Next I turned off the power to
each of the circuits in my house, one
circuit at a time, while my son monitored
the activity on the CM-15a. No circuit
affected the continuous B7 on-off cycling.
No circuit being turned off allowed the
Palmpals to control the modules directly.
I then moved the computer and CM-15a to
another circuit, turned off the circuit I
was using to monitor the other circuits.
Again modules did not respond.
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Try using the 751 and remove the CM15A from
the equation. It could be defective.
T
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Tcassio
Thanks for your suggestion. But, I tried
that. I've tested with just the CM-15a,
just the TM751 and with both. Nothing
seems to allow any of the modules to work.
Athough I have noticed bu pressing the on
or off buttons on the Palmpal many times in
a row a module may respond.
I did get the power company to respond.
They came out, unfortunately when I wasn't
around, and check the transformer. They
left a note saying it was fine.
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Did you dis-connect the computer completly?
Did you move the CM15A away from the
computer and turn off that breaker? And
still got the same result?
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JohnN
Try using the TM751 only and one appliance
module, plug them in the same circuit,
close together (outlets in the same room
should be on the same circuit), make sure
that the CM15a and any power bar is
unplugged, use you palm remote and see if
it works. I believe something within your
home is causing problem, dirty power line
will cause glitches, intermittent
operation, but not a total failure.
Before you spend any money on filters and
coupler you need to be sure about the
source of the problem.
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Donald, Yes. I have completely removed the
CM-15a using only the TM751. But, still no
module will respond to a command from
either AHP or a Palmpad.
Carmine, Thanks for the suggestion. I
tried plugging (seperately) the CM-15a and
the TM751 into the same outlet as an
appliance module. Neither one would
trigger the module. Then I moved both to a
power strip (one that I have used
successfully in the past). Again the
module did not respond. Tried another
module and another Palmpad... just in
case. You have far more experience than I
do with this technology, so I will accept
your hypothesis that the problem is in my
home.
Nothing in my house is new since the
problem started. I've try to check
electrical equipment to see if there is any
indication of it failing or not operating
properly. Again, nothing obvious.
In another thread Tigger suggested that I
turn off as many of the breakers at the
same time and see if that cleared the
problem. I will try that along with his
other suggestion, which is to use a power
line filter to isolate the CM-51a/TM751 and
an appliance module from the power line to
see if the problem really is the power and
not RF.
I can't agree with you more about
coupler/blockers. They are a bit pricy and
I don't want to solve the wrong problem.
This is a difficult issue to resolve
without the proper instrumentation and I
truly appreciate the thoughts, suggestions
and sanity checking.
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JohnN
I would suggest that you try your CM15a,
TM751, one appliance module + palm pad in
another location (a friend place maybe)
just to eliminate the possibility that they
are damaged, because these products
(regardless of the make) have delicate
electronic parts inside, power surge can
damage components.
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JohnN - It's almost as if some device in
your home is actually GENERATING a real B7
PLC command - so (if this has not been
suggested) be sure to remove any device
capable of generating PLC (these would
include TM751, RR501, CM15a, IR543, old
CM11a, camera or alarm systems,
etc) ...essentially anything capable of
generating PLC commands.
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Well folks I’ve had a fun day. First I
turned off every circuit in my house, at
the breaker panel, except for one. The CM-
15a still showed cycling B7 sequences and
neither the TM751 nor CM-15a could control
any module. Then moved setup to another
circuit turned that one on and the other
one off. Again nothing worked and B7
sequences continued.
Next I connected a power strip to a UPS
still connected to the power line.
Connected the CM-15a, TM751 and an
appliance module on the power strip. The
CM-15a activity monitor was clean. No B7
on-off sequences. More over both the CM-
15a and TM751 controlled the appliance
module… just like it used to work.
Unless there is something I’ve missed here,
it looks like I’ve got some kind of very
strong signal on the power line. Don’t
know if it’s the power company or a
neighbor. Either way…. I’ve got a problem.
I’ve decided my next step is to install a
blocker at my power panel. I’ve started
researching them and would really
appreciate any thoughts, suggestions, or
sharing your experiences with any of them
good or bad. They are a bit pricy and I
want to make sure I get an effective one.
Thanks again to all for your suggestions.
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JohnN: You have four possible variables, to
my understanding as you have described it.
JohnN: If you have a coupler/repeater it may
be picking up noise and issuing well formed
X10 commands (I named it X10 Gibberish)-- I
experienced that and it came in almost
continuous bursts. Replaced the
Coupler/repeater with just a coupler and the
X10 Gibberish went away… but the noise
stayed and intermittently would be
problematic; so some filters were added. A
misbehaving 220V oven, water heater, or
breaker (may be only one side/phase) may
create noise and if it is on your common
side (short or partial) flipping the
breakers won’t eliminate it, disconnecting
it from the power line will (unplugging).
The highest probability is that the problem
lies within your domain (from house meter
in). You can get a loaner X10 Elk Signal &
Noise test meter - FREE test At Automated
Outlet (Your cost is the shipping)
http://www.automatedoutlet.com/product.php?
productid=463&cat=44&page=1 Also make sure
that both phases of 220 at each 220 breaker
and end device are producing the proper
voltage. Check for shorts to common. All
that should be done whether you add a PLC
blocker (firewall) or not.
Good Luck.
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Tony,
Thanks. I had pretty much convinced myself
that the problem was coming in from the
outside and was about to purchase a
blocker/coupler. I’m holding off until I
work through your suggestions.
First, I don’t have a coupler or repeater.
Initially, my lines were so clean that I
was able to control anything anywhere in my
home, independent of phase. However, I am
now observing X10 Gibberish coming from the
CM-15a. It appears to be swamped by the
noise signal and is showing, in the
Activity Monitor, a constant B7 on-off
cycle.
I’d like to better understand your
suggestions about misbehaving 220V oven,
water heater, or breaker. Is the problem
that with 220v appliances, even though the
breaker to that circuit has been turned
off, there is a possibility that the
appliance could be partially shorting to
neutral or ground and still be creating
noise? If so, is this situation also
possible with 110v appliances or only 220v
because they span both phases? Also,
wouldn’t there be some other indication of
the problem that would be noticeable by
observing the appliance or breaker?
I hadn't thought to check the phase voltage
at the panel, but, I will. When you
suggest checking for shorts to common, are
you saying to check for a short between
neutral and ground?
I will request the test equipment from
Automated Outlet today. It’s really great
that they offer them.
Thanks again for the suggestions and
willingness to help.
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JohnN: The 220 breaker usually is a set of
breakers, one for each phase. I have seen
it when tripped and reset only one resets
and the other remains open. The 220
appliances could develop a partial short in
their heating elements they should be
inspected… however flipping the breaker
should isolate them. Poor contact arcing
can also be a problem. In your power lines
are frayed or close proximity (soft short)
could be causing some problems this could be
at the outlet or the appliance/lamp plug or
even in the appliance/lamp (unplugging will
isolate the appliance, but not the outlet).
If you have driven any nails into the wall
or drilled be sure you didn’t hit any power
lines. The common wire (white) is
integrated through out the house so
something shorting or arcing to it even
within a plugged in appliance/lamp could
cause noise. Lastly if the CM15A when
isolated on one circuit does it and then
moved to another and still does it I would
also treat it as a suspect.
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JohnN: See if you get a voltage reading
between the Bare copper ground and the
common (white)… if you do you probably have
a miswire or short somewhere. The 220V is
achieved via the voltage between the 2
phases (wires) and does not use the common.
The common is used only for 115/110V to
either Phase.
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JohnN,
Go back to where you were, all the breakers
turned off, No "B7's" X10 noise. Then 1 by
1 turn on each breaker, check to see if you
get the "B7's" for each breaker. This will
isolate the problem to a single circuit
(maybe). Once you find that circuit you can
check that circuit by unplugging things to
find the cause.
Good Luck!
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Folks, thanks for your suggestions.
Billy, I never got to the point where the
noise went away. So, I can’t identify a
particular circuit. I had all of the
circuits off, but the noise continued.
Helpful Hints, good suggestion. I’ll check
the voltage between neutral and ground when
I check the actual voltage on each of the
phases to neutral at the panel.
Tony, I’m still struggling with how poor
connections, poor contact arcing or soft
shorting would continue when every circuit
breaker in the house was turned off at the
same time. I had only one circuit live
then switched that circuit with another
(with all other circuits off). How could
the noise continue, if there was no power?
The only place that I can conceive of is
the breakers. They have continuous access
to the power lines and soft shorting
(within the breaker itself) might be
possible, even with the breaker tripped.
What am I missing?
I’m sure the CM-15A is working fine and
not the problem, because it worked on
a "clean" line created by using a UPS as a
line filter.
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Silly question -
If you attach an appliance module,
with address B7 to the power line,
will it sit there and cycle on-and-off ?
Just curious if it is a legitimate command
coming across the line, or if that is how
the activity monitor is seeing it.
Disconnect the CM15A, and TM751's during
this test. . .
T
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Good thinking Tigger - that ought to flush
out whether it's "legitimate" or goblins!
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S note: If you had the power company come
out and check the transformer, they probly
only checked for proper voltage and
amperage. They would not have checked for
line noise. This would have required an
osciloscope and most of the trucks don't
normally have one as standard equipment. I
would complain again and tell them exactly
what is happening and what you have done to
try to discover the source of the problem.
If this is an ongoing problem then they
will have to do something about it.
As a side note - those people who have the
foresight to purchase and use SOLAR PANELS
AND DIS-CONNECTED from the GRID are
enjoying cleaner power than what the power
companies will ever be able to supply. AND
they can use there X10 equipment without
any problems. (I wish I had the equipment
to do so).
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Guys thanks for staying with me.
Tigger, a good question. Attaching only an
appliance module caused the module to
oscillate on-off at a frequency of around
1on-off cycle per second.. The CM-15A
verified that situcation by showing
incoming commands of alternating B7 on-off
commands in the activity monitor. The CM-
15A is so swamped, by the noise, it can’t
process anything else. So, other signals
do not get out on the power lines. And when
they do they are not well formed so they
don’t operate the modules properly.
Donald McMow, you have a good point. I
called the power company (PEPCO) several
times and received a voice mail system that
gave you 10 seconds to report the
problem. After not getting anywhere with
that approach, I called the main number and
managed to get far enough into their
service maze to get to a real person. I
described the problem to her and she said
she would send someone out to check. I
got a note from the tech saying the
transformer was AOK. I’m positive he
hasn’t a clue what the noise floor looks
like on our line.
I am trying to find the “right” people to
talk to in the power company about this
problem and see if I can get a better
qualified Tech out to check the noise
characteristics of the line. On the other
side of that, I’m looking for a
blocker/coupler that would provide me with
the isolation I’ll need from whatever the
source is. My concern is that the power
company will not be interested in helping
me and I’ll need to work something out on
my own
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Are you having any other "wierd" things
happening in conjunction with the noise?
Incandescent bulbs making noise, excess
noise on your stereo equipment/TV or
picture problems, excess noise coming from
other motors or transformers? I would
almost be tempted to have a talk with an
electrician and see what his take is on the
problem. Maybe he could point you in the
right direction as to a person to talk to
at the power company.
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JohnN
I find next to impossible that power line
noise can generate an exact X10 signal, the
bit in the positive half cycle are
complemented on the negative cycle, the odd
that a complete house code address plus
on/off signal is generated are less than
winning a lottery.
Have you tried just you appliance module?
No other X10 transmitter plugged in ?(that
includes any 2 way X10 devices).
With just the appliance module plugged in
if you still have problem try a different
house code + address, if problem persist,
than you do not have a simple noise
problem, your power may be unstable, a
large AC motor with defective speed control
can alter the power line cycle enough to
wreck havoc to electronic equipment.
I would recommend to visually inspecting
the power line with a scope you should have
a clean sine wave.
Any energy efficient appliance can be the
source of problem when they malfunction:
lights ballast, variable speed control
furnace motor …….
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Did you try the appliance module at your
neighbors on either side of your house? If
they are fed from the same transformer that
could give you more info on the source of
the problem. If it does exhibit the ghost
commands at your neighbors, try turning off
the main breaker in your house to eliminate
that source.
Good Luck!
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Hmm.
Do you, or perhaps a neighbor have an ADEMCO
Lynx alarm panel?
These panels, and some other Ademco panels
have an X10 interface, and when in the ALARM
mode, can transmit a repeating On/Off
command on either unit 7, or 8,
in response to an alarm.
A malfunctioning panel might be sending
out the signal continuously. . . .
Just a thought.
T
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(If it IS an alarm panel, transmitting PLC
commands, unplugging the transformer will
stop the transmissions from reaching the
power line.)
T
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Donald, No nothing else in the house is
behaving badly or even suspiciously. The
only exception is a pair of “wireless”
intercoms that modulate the house wiring.
They are very noisy.
Carmine, I can’t agree with you more. That
last little experiment threw me for a loop.
There is no way random noise is generating
perfectly formed X10 signals in a precise on-
off sequence. I do not have any other
transmitting device in the system
currently. No CM-15a, no TM751, no
amplifiers or repeaters and no 2-way
modules. Everything I have is either a lamp
module, dimmer switch, appliance module or
an appliance socket. Besides, all of these
were… at some point… switched off when I
turned the power off and the signal did not
go away. I’ll try other house codes, but
I’m fairly sure that only the B7 code will
be active.
Billy, good suggestion. I will try that.
Tigger, what a very interesting
possibility. I don’t think I have any of
those panels. However, the one thing that
did stay active was my alarm system. The
power was off, but the system has a backup
battery. I am going to disconnect it at the
power source (transformer) just to make
sure. Also, it is very possible that one of
my neighbors has one of these panels. This
seems like the most plausible explanation.
I will try and track this down with my
neighbors, after I have checked my home.
Stay tuned guys and gals. For what I hope
will be the exciting conclusion of this
serial.
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JohnN
If you try different house code and /or
address, and the problem is solved, then
most likely one of you neighbour is using
X10 based devices else, in this case a
coupler/ blocker installed on the main
panel will solve the problem.
The best coupler/blocker are the one
installed in the power panel, the neutral
wire is inserted trough the device.
There are many devices that are X10 capable
like my hard wired DSC 832 alarm panel;
based on the information provided I am sure
there is a device within you home or
neighbour that is transmitting the code.
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A happy ending after all… at least for the
interference problem.
When we last left JohnN, a relentless B7 on-
off sequence was bombarding his system and
consumed his CM-15A. After fully testing
his home he concluded that something from
outside his home possessed his system.
Initial calls to the power company were
unsuccessful. However, along the way he
ran into a fairy godfather, who pulled some
strings and got one the company’s best
wizards (investigator) out to help. The
wizard was able to find the other 6 homes
on his transformer and then proceeded home-
to-home to find the home possessed with the
demon (offending X10 device). As is
normally true in stories and life, the last
home proved to contain the demon.
JohnN, convinced that the problem lied in a
rogue alarm panel sending an alarm
sequence, searched the enchanted home for
the devilish panel. To his chagrin the
enchanted home did not have, nor ever had
an alarm panel. So, circuit by circuit the
wizard and JohnN searched to find the
demon’s circuit. Once found they searched
high and low for the devilish device.
Finally, not finding anything inside the
house and in desperation they looked
outside. And what did the find? A flood
light with a motion sensor. A quick flick
of a switch and the demon was exposed and
subsequently vanquished.
Now JohnN can happily join his friend to
vanquish the remaining demons in AHP.
THE END….. or a renewed beginning?
To all a very sincere thanks for all the
support. I can assure you I would never
have solved this without it.
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Was the motion detector in your house? What
brand and model was it?
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DXPPass, The unit was installed in my
neighbor’s home. The neighbor’s home shares
a power transformer with my home. From the
looks of the unit, it has been there for
quite some time. It was located on the
second story of his home, so I couldn’t get
any detailed information about it. However,
the unit looks allot like X10’s “Dual
Floodlight Outdoor Motion Monitor” part
number PR511-S, which has a built in X10
interface.
My neighbor’s unit failed such that it was
sending out continuous B7 on-off sequences
over the power line. Our power is quite
clean so the signal was strong and running
24/7. Basically, it was swamping my CM-15a
so that it couldn’t respond to any other
command.