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[ve3bwp]

I live rural and we're on a well. We upgraded our well pump to the latest "variable pressure" DC motor with microprocessor control.

After that X10 control became intermittent. Some outlets in the did not seem to be able to pass X10 signals.

After sometime of living with it and not really associating the this to the pump I discovered when I turned off the pump breaker X10 worked again all over the house. Macros worked. modules came on and went off. Bliss.

So now the choice is simple.. water or automation? Easy choice... you can always buy bottled water. OK wife intervenes and reprioritizes this for me.

I look further and realize Grundfos uses what they described as "mains borne signalling" to get the commands to the pump over the legacy 3 wire cable running to the well. I scope the 240 line coming out of the pump controller back to the electrical panel and see data pulses near the zero crossinf very similar to X10. It looks like they do not bother to filter the signals to stop them at the controller. Damn them!

I called Grundfos Canada tech support. At first they say I'm the first to complain but after calling the national sales manager I find out AM or shortwave radio interference or common complaints and PLC interference have happened before. They reccomend (at my cost) Corcom 10VB6  EMI filter for about $25. I have one on order but just to be sure I also order a pair of the X10 Pro XPF 20A filters.

Both are on order and it's been a week now. I am pretty sure this will solve the problem. I'm a bit ticked at GRUNDFOS for chinsing out and not stopping the pump control data pulses from being fed back into the electrical feed but $25 is reasonable to me. Hopefully this helps save some one some time.

[Charles Sullivan]

Thanks for the report.  Please check back and let us know how things work out once you've got the filters installed.

[TakeTheActive]

I look further and realize Grundfos uses what they described as "mains borne signalling" to get the commands to the pump over the legacy 3 wire cable running to the well. I scope the 240 line coming out of the pump controller back to the electrical panel and see data pulses near the zero crossinf very similar to X10. It looks like they do not bother to filter the signals to stop them at the controller. Damn them!

Interesting! Are these data pulses constant or random?  If you're tech-savvy enough to own and use a scope, you may want to assemble an: X10 Oscilloscope Adapter for a better view.

They reccomend (at my cost) Corcom 10VB6  EMI filter for about $25. I have one on order but just to be sure I also order a pair of the X10 Pro XPF 20A filters.

Filters are what first came to my mind too, but since this GRUNDFOS signal seems to be so similar to X10's signal, I wondering about "just how much" filtering you're going to need.  It would be interesting to see how much signal strength the GRUNDFOS generates on the ELK X10 Signal Strength Meter. If it's pumping out something like 10V right on the X10 "sweet spot", then you may need more attenuation.

GOOGLE NG:comp.home.automation for ACT, Phil Kingery and filters - IIRC, I remember reading about 30:1 and 60:1 numbers somewhere. Personally, I'd perfer installing one 60:1 filter instead of two 30:1 filters.

Best of luck and keep us all updated with your progress!

[ve3bwp]

Update: I installed the Corcom 10VB6  EMI filter as suggested by the Grundfos national sales manager. It reduced the extent of the problem slightly but X10 reliability is still bad unless I switch off the pump breaker. The filter with shipping and tax came to $42 canadian. Not worth the cost. The filter aslo does not come in a proper encloser so it took about an hour to mount it into a 4 X 4 electricla box and install inline with the pump.

I still have a pair of the X10 Pro XPF 20A filters on order but they still have not arrived yet.

As for the scope adaptor, thanks for this. I will put one together. The scope I have is an old HP with some fancy triggering capabilities and it takes a while to get a reading solid enough to take any decent signal strength readings. From what I can see the Grunfos puts out 3Vpp which is %50 stronger then X10. Once I get a scope adaptor put together I will let you know the outcome.

As for the ELK X10 Signal Strength Meter reading, I don't have one. I bought the X10 Pro XPTR and XPTT set. I regret not getting the ELK. The Grundfos codes don't register on the XPTT at all, it just shows the impact on the X10 signal. From what I can see the Grundof protocal is based on 130Khz vs the 122KHz X10.

As for the 30:1 and 60:1 thing. Note the pump is a 240V device so the XPF solution calls for two of them. One to each side of the split pahse to Neutral. I hope 30:1 on each side is going to be enough. at $150 a pair canadian I would hate to have to invest in another pair.

Also FYI. Now that the cold weather is coming and I fire up the ham gear.. I found the pump also puts out a lot of short wave and AM radio interference. Not a big deal if you don't use AM radio or are not a radio Amatuer. I will treat this as a seperate topic and post it on the HAM radio forums.

I have also sent an update to the Grundfos folks in case they are able to dig deeper into thier knowledgebase and offer up some short cuts to all this. At this point the EMI filter was all they could suggest. Being a HAM I have dealt with many an interference problem over the years but this has to be by far the most severe problem I've ever come across. I'm surpised it got approval.

More to come when the XPF's arrive.

[Oldtimer]

Since you've mentioned that you're a ham and familiar with signal trouble shooting I thought I'd add another thought to the mix since what you've done so far should have accomplished much more than it seems to have.  In your original post you mention legacy wiring.  Have you checked continuity in the original ground wire and and all the local ground connections at both ends. Corrosion could also be a big factor. And, are you sure that the well pipe itself is a good local ground at that end?

Also I don't know how many watts this pump draws but for the money you're spending on filters you might consider an isolation transformer instead.  They occasionally turn up on the surplus market.

Good luck.

[TakeTheActive]

UPDATE: I installed the Corcom 10VB6  EMI filter as suggested by the Grundfos national sales manager. It reduced the extent of the problem slightly but X10 reliability is still bad unless I switch off the pump breaker...

...I still have a pair of the X10 Pro XPF 20A filters on order but they still have not arrived yet.

...As for the 30:1 and 60:1 thing. Note the pump is a 240V device so the XPF solution calls for two of them. One to each side of the split pahse to Neutral. I hope 30:1 on each side is going to be enough. at $150 a pair canadian I would hate to have to invest in another pair.

Some reading material for you:

• Which One Should I Use, Part XII (Preamble)
  I just *LOVE* reading (and re-reading!) X10 articles by "Uncle Phil" Kingery! He uses these "pseudo-technical terms " that make the subject matter easy to comprehend.
  The sections about "Big A** Filter" and "Really Big A** Filter" should help you out.
  .
• ACT: AF310 (AC100, AF100, AF300 and AX000) Filters/Transformers
  .
• ACT: AF310 Instruction Sheet  (1-Filter Solution)
  .
• ACT: AF300 Instruction Sheet  (2-Filter Solution)
  .
• ACT: PCC Mini Catalog
  .
• ACT: PCC Specifications Index
  .
• ACT PCC Instructions Index
  

I understand WHAT these Filter "Gizmos" can do for me, but not HOW.   

Other Members, like XTB Guru JeffVolp and "Uncle Phil's" favorite nephew   dave w should be able to help you out there.

...As for the ELK X10 Signal Strength Meter reading, I don't have one. I bought the X10 Pro XPTR and XPTT set. I regret not getting the ELK. The Grundfos codes don't register on the XPTT at all, it just shows the impact on the X10 signal. From what I can see the Grundof protocal is based on 130Khz vs the 122KHz X10.

Well, *BEFORE* Jim aka Otis69 aka Duck69 chimes in with "You can borrow an ESM-1 from..." , *I'D* like to state:

[SOAPBOX MODE: ON]
IMHO, when a "little guy" develops and produces such a useful tool for a LIMITED MARKET, the consumers should, if at all economically possible, SUPPORT HIM WITH A PURCHASE. My ESM-1 purchase is a decision that I'll never regret - I use it all the time!
[SOAPBOX MODE: OFF]

More to come when the XPF's arrive.

I'm sure that I speak for everyone following this thread that we're all "sitting on the edge of our seats", waiting to read what happens next. 

Thanks for the nice update - TTYS...

[TakeTheActive]

...In your original post you mention legacy wiring.  Have you checked continuity in the original ground wire and and all the local ground connections at both ends. Corrosion could also be a big factor. And, are you sure that the well pipe itself is a good local ground at that end?

How does the ACT: AF310 1-Filter Solution (2nd / Bottom diagram) work *WITHOUT* a ground? 

[ve3bwp]

On the Legacy wiring your bring up a good point. The well was drilled in `89. The Grundfos was installed to replace the original constant pressure pump and controller. The original pump was working but acting flakey so I decided to have it replaced proactively before the next winter season set in. I thought it was going to be a high end solution and therefore low risk problems wise. I'm a bit miffed that Grundfos would do this and chew up so much time and leaving me to solve it myself.

I am not an expert on wells or well pumps so I watched carefully as they did the install. I made sure the wiring was in good shape and dressed properly at the well. But.. as I was installing the EMI filter the other day I took a closer look at the mounting and wiring of the Grundfos controller. The pump wiring and the water inlet from the well enter through the floor of the basement and I found what looks like a 6 gauge bare ground wire folded up and tucked behind the water heater. It looks like it could be a well ground wire that looks like it was never connected... or cut so cleanly it may have been disconnected and set aside during the Grundfos installation. I was outside when they installed the controller so I missed that part. I know it is not the Electrical service ground. That's at the other end of the house and accounted for.

Now that you bring this up I will look inside the controller and review the documentation to see if that ground can and should be connected. That may help with the RFI. The Sales manager did say they offered a radio noise filter but it was over $500 and just offered it as info only.

As for the Elk, I would not expect anyone to lend me one since it would likley have to be shipped to Canada from the states. I have no problem investing in one myself. I actually used to be a reseller of X10 products in the late '80's. I sold a product called CP master via Home Automation labs in Atlanta. I sold a lot of X10 and did a lot of installation and turnkey solutions in high end homes and some farm applications as a sideline hoby job. I found no shortage of folks who wanted X10 but could not figure out how apply them so I did a lot of installations and troubleshooting and I made pretty good money at it.   I had serious plans of doing for a living but then I ran into some problems getting product from X10 and some product quality problems. X10 was the only game in town at the time. I concluded it was too soon back then. Now with other players such as Insteon and ACT.. All this is to say as semi retirement is on the horizon I may try to get back into it and offer some solutions.  So I don't mind buying the Elk and spending time getting back up to speed on all this. If there was an offer in the works to lend me an Elk I really appreciate the thought anyway.

As for the Isolation transformer.. I had given that a thought. The pump draw on 240V is not supposed to exceed 10A. If need be I have an old peak hold amp probe I can hang on that line. I do have an isolation transformer thatr is intended for 120V.  I will see if I could use it, at least for test purposes, to handle the 240 V 10A to the controller. I'll need to check the rating and the neutral config. A transfromer would be a nice clean solution. Only issue would be mounting it in the space in the area and also something that would be reccognizable to a pump service tech or electrician. It could be a good inexpensive last resort option.

Thanks for the Filter info from ACT. I had looked at them before and as I recall there was no CSA approved 240V wire-in blocking filter solution. I will look through the stuff you posted and digest it a bit more. I have some good working knowledge and have had experiance building filters so I am comfortable with the "how"...but since this is all on the mains I need to stay with CSA and ESA approved stuff to not risk a home owners insurance issue. Hopefully they have such a solution.

I appreciate all of the thought and time you folks are putting into this and the interest in my problem.

In the meantime I got word my XPF's shipped and should arrive tomorrow or Monday. I will let you know how it goes.

[ve3bwp]

I installed the X10 XPF Filters and X10 still fails until the pump breaker is turned off!

Well .. crap!

30:1 may not be enough?

I'll make up the scope probe and tackle this another day and check the filter wiring. Maybe time to try the isolation transformer. . I have not gotten a reply to my last message to Grundfos either. It may be time to give up on this pump and go back to a conventional one

[ve3bwp]

Note much to report. I had to set this aside because of some illness in the family and being crazy busy at work.

I ordered an Elk-esm1, I haven't made the probe yet. I moved 3 years ago so I need to rummage through my unpacked boxes of electronic bits to gather up the parts to make it.

The problem is Less worse with the XPF's in place but not totally eliminated. After a weeks observation I can say the problem has been reduced to intermittently (approx 25%) of the time the X10 signals don't seem to cross the 240V spilt in the house wiring. I have gotten around this by setting up a spare Activehome interface on the other side of the split but I've added a 1 second delay to the smart macro triggers to minimize collisions and the "false" activations of X10 modules on other addresses. Its not perfect but it's holding things together until I can get back at it. I've dug out my old isolation transformer and have it standing by.

The national sales manager at Grundfos has still not responded to my email but I did get a read acknowledgement. I will call them and get the presidents office contact info and escalate once I gather some readings. Their suggestion was the emi filter and it stopped there. They say I am the only one having this problem. Famous last words. Not an uncommon tactic in interference cases.  So the onus is on me to get this resolved. By ignoring me he's just getting my back up.

Once I get the Elk and the probe together I'll work up some screenshots and see if I can post them. In the meantime I would suggest if you are into home automation or AM /SW radio or plan to be stay away from a Grundfos well pump with mains borne signaling. I suspect things are going to have to get a lot worse for Grundfos on this problem before it gets better for anyone who buys one. It's a shame because it's a great system otherwise and it lives up to it's promise. I would hate to see what happens if you got two of these pumps on the same electrical feed. ie two unsuspecting neighbors.

More to come shortly. In the meantime I welcome any and all suggestions.

[TakeTheActive]

...I have gotten around this by setting up a spare Activehome interface on the other side of the split but I've added a 1 second delay to the smart macro triggers to minimize collisions and the "false" activations of X10 modules on other addresses. Its not perfect but it's holding things together until I can get back at it...

Since X10 PLC signals take ~2 seconds to complete, and X10 RF signals another ~2 seconds, I would change that delay on CM15A #2 to (at least) 5 seconds.

If necessary, I'm confident that PUCK! can determine the *EXACT* values if necessary! 

[It appears that he's already setup!  "Here are a few pics from a spectrum analyzer I took this morning." ]

[Puck edit: applied normal font to my name]

[Puck]

For what ve3bwp is doing, a delay shouldn't be necessary. I have a similar (temporary) setup for one uncooperative circuit with no delay in the macro. I found the CM15A's macro trigger / execution delay to be sufficient. So if 1 second is working out for ve3bwp, I wouldn't change it.

[TakeTheActive]

I installed the X10 XPF Filters and X10 still fails until the pump breaker is turned off!

Well .. crap!

30:1 may not be enough?

Just came across this today: NG:comp.home.automation - X10 filter, 100A 230V

If you haven't yet visited the NG, there's OVER A DECADE of archived messages there - you just need to put on a pot of coffee, sit back and SEARCH.

Also, many of the "X10 Pioneers" still visit there (maybe not as frequently as 10 years ago ) and if you post your current problem, you might get some new ideas... 

[Oldtimer]

The fact that you are using some of the best made filters in the business and they don't seem to be working makes me even more suspicious that you've got a ground problem.  In addition to what I posted earlier you should also check to make sure that the ground to earth connection inside your entrance box is properly and securely wired and also that you actually have a functional earth connection from the entrance box to a working ground rod.  By working I mean that it hasn't been shortened by corrosion or breakage.

[ve3bwp]

Just to let you know I have not dissapeared. I just heard from arrtech my Elk has just shipped. It was on backorder all this time. My dad is making up the x10 scope probe for me. I forgot I stored my electronic bits in their barn when I was moving. So I should be able to pick up where I left off in the next week or so.

Thanks for the link on the x10 pioneers forum. I have bookmarked it and will go through it and repeat this post there. Worth noting the sales manager at Grundfos has read another message from me, I got a read ack but still no answer. Not a good way to do business. Actually that is the first time I have ever come across this with a good brand. Other times I have had the misfortunes of encountering a problem with other brands I have always had a good response.

The Hydro service ground here seems sound. Being of an electrical background I check that every so many years when I tighten down the screws in the panel. Especially important being rural with no city water feed to ground to. I gave it all a good going over this summer when I was adding in a generator transfer switch. Being a HAM, over the years I have found that to be a common source of noise problems on the lower bands.

The well ground will need some scrutiny. When I get back at it this will get some more attention. I may not get much help from Grundfos now when I call with some questions about the various grounding practices. I know with these electronic substitute controllers grounding can often times cause more harm then good. So I will make sure I get the design intent if I can get it. The documentation does not say much about it.

Hopefully I'll be back in the next few weeks or so with some decent observations.