Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[ajleduc]

I just noticed this, thought that I was living in a wonderous new house.
I don't have a phase coupler and I have tons of arc fault and ground fault breakers.

Everything was working great!

Then ----- I turned on the dryer and 1/2 the house stops working.

I can find all kinds of posts that say, if one half the house doesn't work then turn on the dryer and see if that fixes it.
Well here is where Murphy steps in.

The dryer is new - goes with the new house.
They said when I bought it was computer controlled (Haven't tried to control it with x10 yet....)

Anyway
I am not sure whether its a noise or phase coupling problem.

Anyone out there have a few pointers to help me figure this one out.

[Puck]

I gonna say that's a noise problem. 

Do you have a phase coupler? If not, you may have to look at getting one that mounts in your breaker panel.

While your dryer is on (and killing control to one phase), try moving the Transceiver to the other phase and see what works (or doesn't).

[Brian H]

I have seen reports of some new dryers and washers with microprocessors. Generating all kinds of X10 powerline noise.

[ajleduc]

Puck:
  Sorry I took so long to get back to your question.  Its been a very long week.

While your dryer is on (and killing control to one phase), try moving the Transceiver to the other phase and see what works (or doesn't).

  All the lights turn on and off when the interface is plugged into the other phase just like they are supposed to.

  WOW! 
  Not to be totally ignorant but ----- so what does it mean?

[Brian H]

Most of the troubled lights are on the phase you moved the transceiver to.
The dryer has electronics in it and the other phase is getting most of the noise. Maybe the 120 volt side that has the electronics on it; as most only use 220 volts for the heating and 120 volts for the controls.

Line 1 Phase -------------------^^^^^^^^^----------------Line 2 Phase
                                      Heating element

Line 1 Phase----------------------[____________]----------Neutral
                                        Electronic Controls

[ajleduc]

Not knowing much about filters -
This is a dryer so its 30 amps
It appears that the filters have a amperage rating 5 amps - 20 amps.

The Leviton Model 6289 says 5 amps or greater - greater? 

It also says it can be installed phase to phase.

Based on that and the problem I am having
  Would I want to get one of these and connect it phase - phase.
or
  Get 2 connect 1 each phase to neutral.
or
  Get 1 connect phase to neutral - Electronic Controls - hopefully I guess right on the first try 
or
  This will never work - do something else - please include suggestion.
or
  Don't let the wife use the dryer - Use the line: Dear I am thinking air dried cloths smell sooooo good....

[Brian H]

The 6289 is a noise absorber not a filter and the load does not have to flow through it. So coils and components don't have to be heavy enough to pass all the load current through it.
It goes across the load and absorbs noise.
The diagram in the Leviton manual shows it across the load or one phase to neutral and says can also be used across the phases.
I have no idea how well it works as it is called a noise reducer.
The manual indicates it absorbs frequencies above and below the X10 frequency of 121 KHz. so it may only reduce non X10 band noise.
Maybe someone with this; can clarify the way it works.

[ajleduc]

Brian H:
  Finally we have someone with experience with the 6289

ME!

  It doesn't work, at least for my purpose.
  I tried the 6289 phase to phase and each phase to neutral.

  With the dryer turned on half the house still will not turn off, they turn on but not off.

  I wish it were heavier I could use it as a boat anchor.

  Seems kind of strange someone would sell an x10 device, where the noise in the range you care about is not filtered.
  Like I said I surely dont understand filters or noise absorbers.

  So my search is still open for a device to filter noise from a dryer 30amps.

[Brian H]

Thanks for the update even if it was not good.
The 6289 looks like it is used to absorb non X10 signals that are strong enough to interfere with the X10 121 KHz signals.

[JeffVolp]

As others have reported, the 6289 is a narrow band filter that will pass signals in the X10 frequency band, but will attenuate out of band signals.  It can be useful to eliminate some broadband noise.  However, it cannot eliminate noise directly in the X10 bandpass because that would also eliminate the X10 signal itself.

There are more and more reports of problems from electronically controlled washers and dryers.  Apparently the manufacturers have not engineered them to be friendly to other devices on the line.

I am not aware of any filters that can handle 30A at 250V.  Unfortunately, there may not be a good answer here.  Since the problem seems to be confined to just one phase, you might be able to get away with just filtering that one side.  Two X10 XPF filters wired in parallel will carry the required current.  The line running to the dryer would have to be rerouted through a separate utility panel to house those filters.

Since this seems to be a relatively new problem, it is possible that some manufacturer will design a suitable filter in the coming months.

[Brian H]

We have had a report of a Washing Machine doing the samething. Luckly in that case a 120 volt filter could be used.
I thought the XPF was a 5 amp filter?

[JeffVolp]

No, the XPF is a 20A filter the same size as some of the X10 repeaters.  They are frequenly available on eBay for about $20 plus shipping.

[ajleduc]

JeffVolp:
  I think I will give the XPF a try.
 
  I was just wondering about the hookup.
  There are only a couple of 15Amp circuits being affected by the problem.
  Since I have to buy 2 anyway would putting them on the affected circuit rather than the dryer circuit work?
  The only down side is I will never be able to expand beyond those 2 circuits without more filters at $20 a pop.

  This is my inexperience talking but, I will say hooking a 20 amp device to a 30 amp circuit even 2 in series well....
  I don t even know if I could find an electrician that would do it.
  Is this a common thing not a big deal?
  On the second panel do you wire from the 30 amp breaker or do you need to bring 2 new mains from the meter?
 
  O by the way its a BOSCH drier for anyone reading this thinking about buying a new dryer. 

[JeffVolp]

The purpose of the XPF filter is to block signals in the X10 frequency band from passing through it.  So if your dryer is a noise source, inserting the XPF filters in series with the dryer should solve the problem.

First, you would have to identify which phase is the problem, and find which 240V dryer lead is on that circuit.  It should be red or black.  Then the electrician would have to install a small utility box to enclose the two filters, and run a 10-3 from that enclosure to the breaker panel, keeping the same color code.  The leads would connect to the breakers that previously fed the dryer directly.  The dryer phase that does not cause a problem would be connected straight through.  Both filters connected in parallel would be wired in series with the other dryer lead.   Both black filter leads would connect to the lead from the breaker panel.  Both red filter leads would feed the dryer.  Both white filter leads would connect to neutral.  Obviously, ground also connects directly through.  Both filters in parallel will share the load, and each would pass 15A, comfortably within its rating.

To totally isolate the dryer, another pair of filters could be installed in series with the other hot lead, but that would cost another $40.  Since an electrician would be involved, the extra $40 may be cheap insurance.

[ajleduc]

JeffVolp:
  Thanks for the help I am off to find an electrican. 
  One attaboy coming your way.