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[Jasper]

Hi folks.  I have X10 in the house, using a CM11A to control the lights, some floor fans, etc.  It works GREAT and has been working for many years (since the CP290 daze).

What I need now is a relay device, like an appliance module - X10 or otherwise - that will default to OFF after a power failure.  In other words, it would be wonderful for me if the appliance module's relay simply dropped to OPEN and stayed there after a power failure, instead of returning to it's pre-PF state.

I know I can program controllers for a power failure setting and put that controller on a sensing-UPS, etc. etc. etc. - the issue is, by the time the power comes back up, and the controller responds to turn the module off the damage (literally) can already be done.

Does anyone know of a module or device that will let a motor/system stay OFF after a power failure until manually reset?  Thanks!!

[gil shultz]

Good Evening,

This is not hard if I can explain it (I cannot figure out how to attach a sketch):

Schematic courtesy of KDR

• Feed 115VAC NEUTRAL (White wire) directly to the 115VAC Relay Coil terminal.
  
  
• Feed 115VAC HOT (Black wire) to one side of the:
• NO (normally open) Push Button Switch
  
• NO (normally open) Relay Contacts
  
  
• Connect the remaining 115VAC Relay Coil terminal to the other side of the:
• NO (normally open) Push Button Switch
  
• NO (normally open) Relay Contacts
  

When the Push Button Switch is pressed, the Relay Coil will energize and the NO Relay Contact will keep it energized until the power fails.  If you have a second NO Relay Contact, use that for your Load. If not, connect the Load across the Relay Coil but be sure the NO Push Button Switch contacts can support the additional current of the connected Load.

www.MPJA.com has 30A relays for under $5.00 that will do this.  Look for there item number  15832 RL.  These are surplus and will not last long.

                        NO
                       Push
                      Button
                |-----O    O-----|
                |                |
115VAC BLK------X-------||-------X------Relay Coil
                        NO
                       Relay
                      Contact
115VAC WHT------------------------------Relay Coil

115VAC GRN------------------------------Project Metal Case

Hope this  helps.  Go to your local home improvement store and get a metal box and cover to put this in.  Be sure to connect the 115VAC GROUND (Green wire) to the box for safety.

Be careful there is the possibility of shock and or fire with this project.

Good Luck
Gil Shultz


[TTA Edit: Formatted for IMPACT, edited for clarification and SAFETY; corrected logic error in text.

NOTE to steven r: Yes, this took MUCH LONGER than initially anticipated!  :o :)]

Original Text and ASCII Diagram: Feed 115V white wire to a 115V relay coil. Connect one side of the NO (normally open contact) to the other relay coil.  Connect the 115V Black to the other side of the NO coil.  Place a NO switch contact across the NO contacts.  When pressed the coil will energize and the NO contact will keep it energized until the power fails.  If you have a second NO contact use that, if not connect across the coil but be sure the NO switch can support the connected load.

             ____  Button
      |------O   O--------|
------|-------------||------|-------Coil
                  NO Cotact
-------------------------------------Coil

[TakeTheActive]

...This is not hard if I can explain it (I cannot figure out how to attach a sketch):

The Finer Art of Posting to the Forums - Pictures Are Worth a Thousand Words!

P.S. to gil shultz: THANKS for the three informative "Techie" posts last night - I enjoyed reading them. Do you check your PMs?]

[KDR]

Here's a schematic of the above that might help in understanding it a bit more.



As mentioned above, the relay and momentary switch should be rated at least 1-1/2 times the rating of the load for a good safety factor.

^{----------------KDR}

[TakeTheActive]

...As mentioned above, the relay and momentary switch should be rated at least 1-1/2 times the rating of the load for a good safety factor.

Should probably go for a DPST NO 120VAC Relay to allow a minimum capacity NO Push Button Switch.

[KDR]

As TTA suggested here is the same circuit but with a DPST relay. This allows the momentary switch to be rated at a lower current since the only current draw is that of the relay coil.



^{----------------KDR}

[steven r]

To bad Jasper hasn't returned to the forum to see the excellent latching relay diagram KDR has created.

Name:                  Jasper
Posts:                  1 (0.012 per day)
Position:               Newbie
Post rating:          +0/-0
Date Registered:   April 12, 2007, 01:50:57 pm
Last Active:          April 16, 2007, 12:22:28 pm

Perhaps it has helped one of the other almost 400 folks that have read it.
I know it will be helpful in the future for someone.

[TakeTheActive]

To bad Jasper hasn't returned to the forum to see the excellent latching relay diagram KDR has created.

And my re-formatted, color-coded LIST of instructions is what?  <sniff>

Personally, I'm curious as to what gil shultz's reaction is going to be...

[steven r]

And my re-formatted, color-coded LIST of instructions is what?...

It goes without saying he's missing your rainbow of text.

Actually I was looking forward to the question. "...but I wanted to turn it on with X10?" 

[dave w]

Actually I was looking forward to the question. "...but I wanted to turn it on with X10?" 

"CHILDREN - DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME, I AM A PROFESSIONAL    I use a Universal module, but don't tell anyone.

Also (although off topic) You can use 120V "Make on Delay" relays (Artisan Controls, Syracuse Electronics, etc) to power your latching relay. I use them to wait for 3 to 4 minutes after power restoration before energizing computer power strips or the HVAC compressor. Helps to eliminate problems caused by the usual power line instabilities and brown outs as the grid trys to come back.

[Brian H]

Even if Jasper does not chose to see the great work by all that contributed. It will help more than one; that does read it.

[steven r]

...You can use 120V "Make on Delay" relays (Artisan Controls, Syracuse Electronics, etc) to power your latching relay....

I got lost googling for relays but a "Make on Delay" one would be good for my application. I want one to close the contacts on a powerflash module a few minutes after power is restored to trigger my power recovery macro. I figure it wouldn't need to carry much load.

Any relay that you would recommend?

[dave w]

Also try googling for "time delay relay".

I bought several time delay units from surplus years ago I think they were "SAS" brand

Could you  use this:
 
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16271

and the N.C. contacts of a 120V relay?

[Walt2]

Use an old AC-to-DC power adapter (to step the voltage down) that connects up to a very simple 555 timer (for the delay), and have the 555 drive the Universal Module?

In sort of a Rube Goldberg method, AC power is restored to the power adapter.  The power adapter triggers the 555 timer, which delays for 3 minutes.  After the delay, it triggers the Universal Module which sends an X10 power line command to the waiting CM15A.  The CM15A "sees" the PLC, and triggers a macro.  The macro sends PLC "off" signals to the appliance modules, which in turn, turn 'off' the fans.

[steven r]

...Could you  use this: http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16271...

They describe the trigger for this to be closing an external NO switch. Also it is a stay energized for a set time instead of a delay to energize. That's the size I'm looking for. however.

I just reread your answer. Are you suggesting attaching a normally closed relay this product to negate its function? I think the signal would be sent to the powerflash before the signal would trip the 2nd relay.

I want 1 relay that delays for a few minutes and then closes.

This is closer to what I'm needing. I'd still need to modify its delayed out from it to trigger the Powerflash module. Maybe some simple circuit to step down the voltage. to an acceptable input for the Powerflash trigger.