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[specter333]

I posted a question in the skd forums last night but I think I've figured out the problem.  I'm trying to use a pair of AM466 modules to raise and lower a video screen but if one module is on and an off signal is sent for the other The screen jerks then continues and sometimes doesn't respond to it's own off command.

I think the problem is with the modules local control mechanisms.  I have searched this forum, links to other sites and even a google search to  find instructions to disable it.  I have found instructions for many modules, even some with the same model number as mine but they are not the same.

I'm attaching a jpg of my modules board.  Hopefully someone can recognize it and know how to do the mod.

Thanks

[Brian H]

This is a new AM466? It looks like X10 must have done a new revision PCB. I don't see the PIC controler chip in the photo. By chance is there a chip on the solder side of the board?

[specter333]

Hi Brian. Yes this is a AM466 or so it says on the label of the module and the box.  This was however an Ebay item so it could be something weird.

The only component on the circuit side is an IC chip.  Nothing else.

One extremely odd thing I just noticed while trying to meter to see if I did have any low voltage, when powered on I'm reading 120v, when powered off I'm reading 116v.  My guess would be the meter is tripping the local control switch keeping the power on.

Thanks for you help.
Rich

[dave w]

Hi Brian. Yes this is a AM466 or so it says on the label of the module and the box.  This was however an Ebay item so it could be something weird.

The only component on the circuit side is an IC chip.  Nothing else.

One extremely odd thing I just noticed while trying to meter to see if I did have any low voltage, when powered on I'm reading 120v, when powered off I'm reading 116v.  My guess would be the meter is tripping the local control switch keeping the power on.

Thanks for you help.
Rich

You are probably reading the local control sense voltage, it is very low current.

Can you solder? If so, take a pair of snips and carefully cut the top of the lead on the diode in the upper left corner of your picture. If that does not work, solder the lead ends back together.

[Brian H]

Either a real old one [I doubt it] or a later rev than I have seen. All the ones I have myself or seen in mod photos. Have the IC and all the components on one side.

[specter333]

I bought this off Ebay last week so it propable is a new model.  By the way what I meant to say before was there is an IC chip on the solder side of the board.  I can solder a little so I'll give it a try, I do have an extra one if a screw it up. 

When you say the local control sense voltage is low current wouldn't that mean low voltage too?  116v when it's off doesn't sound correct to me.  My weekend started early so I probable won't be able to get back to this until Sunday.  I'm gone every weekend with my job.

Thanks again.
Rich

[Brian H]

Actually it is low current; so the meters high impedance isn't enough to drop it very far. Yes it very possible can read 116 volts on a meter. If you had a light bulb on it and measured across the bulb it would be very low as the bulb loads it down.

[specter333]

Ok, so what's a diode?  I cut the lead of the thing in the very upper left hand corner, which I didn't think was I diode but I don't know, and it didn't like it.  Now when the relay turns on it immediately trips again.  Did you mean that one or the little one beside it.  I choose to try this one first because it will be easy to fix, so no harm done.  Thanks Rich

[dave w]

Ok, so what's a diode?  I cut the lead of the thing in the very upper left hand corner, which I didn't think was I diode but I don't know, and it didn't like it.  Now when the relay turns on it immediately trips again.  Did you mean that one or the little one beside it.  I choose to try this one first because it will be easy to fix, so no harm done.  Thanks Rich

Little black stand up cylinder, which in your photo appears to be touching the black wire going to the relay. In the older design that diode was part of the current supply loop for local control. Cutting that diode would kill all current to load in the OFF state. sometimes the module didn't like this. I think success or failure was contingent on firmware in the controller chip.

If you cut that diode and the module didn't like it, resolder the wire where it is cut, and close it up... You can't do what you want to do.

Using two appliance modules to control your screen is a very bad idea, unless one module applies system power and the second module selects whether to direct the power to the UP or DOWN motor winding through a DPDT relay. This configureation eliminates the danger if both modules accidently come ON at the same time. Check out this thread.

http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=12833.0

[specter333]

Dave, Thank you for that information.  It answers what would have been my next set of questions had I gotten this part sorted out.  I had to do some research but now I at least understand what a relay does.  My question now is can you point me to a relay that I could use?  I'm guessing (since I haven't done enough research yet) that the trigger is 120v and the switch is 120v, and there are different types such as 12v trigger/120v switch?  Is the trigger going to be either AC or DC?

Second thought I had about controlling the screen.  The control box mounted in the power cable works from two momentary switches that when pressed triggers a relay for a given amount of time.  In my case about 75 seconds.  The screen reaches it limits shortly before then but stops on its own.  Is there an X10 product that could act as a momentary switch?  I could then leave the manual controls in line and attach the X10 switches to the soldier side of the control board so both could be used.  Does this sound reasonable to any of you guys who actually know electronics?

Thanks again for your help.  Rich

Update.

 I think I've figured out the answer myself.  The UM506 Universal Module seems to be a simple contact switch, just what I was asking about.

I opened the back of the screens inline controller (which is not attached to the screen at the moment) shorted across the switch soldier points and the controller sprang into action.  You can tell what it's doing by the way the LED flashes.  So I see no reason this method shouldn't work.  Does anyone else?

The upside about using this method is I can leave the original manual controller attached to the screen and still functional.

The downside is it will take three UM506 modules.  One each for up, down and stop.

[dave w]

 I think I've figured out the answer myself.  The UM506 Universal Module seems to be a simple contact switch, just what I was asking about.

I opened the back of the screens inline controller (which is not attached to the screen at the moment) shorted across the switch soldier points and the controller sprang into action.  You can tell what it's doing by the way the LED flashes.  So I see no reason this method shouldn't work.  Does anyone else?

The upside about using this method is I can leave the original manual controller attached to the screen and still functional.

The downside is it will take three UM506 modules.  One each for up, down and stop.

Kudos!
It sounds like you have figured your solution yourself. Trying to keep your screen in as original condition as possible is the most desireable solution.

But why do you need the third "stop" UM506? Is that to stop the screen some where between full up and full down?

At any rate, your test pretty much confirmed a UM506 will work - as long as you do not have to maintain the short across the momentary switch for the full extent of the screen travel time.

When sent an "ON" command the UM506 will do either: 1) provide a momentary closure of about 1 second duration, OR 2) provide and maintain a closure until an "OFF" command is received by the UM506. The UM506 also gives you a beep beep beep every time it is energized, which can be silenced if undesired.

If you decide to go the 120V relay route, this is a cheap relay which works good and can be powered directly from an Appliance Module. The same surplus house has low voltage AC and DC coil relays and also plug in (wall wart) power supplies IF you want to use low voltage relays, but that just complicates the design.
http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/item/RLY-453/500400/120_VAC_RELAY,_DPDT_12_AMPS_.html

[specter333]

Yup the stop button is needed to stop before full down. It's a 7'x9' screen and the way it hangs now it hits the edison plug long before it reaches bottom.  I don't think I've ever lowered it all the way.  Thanks for the info on the relays, that gives me new ideas on other projects I've been thinking of.

By the way, for anyone interested, the thing in the top left of the picture is the same as the thing in the bottom right of the picture which is not the same as what is marked to be cut in other pictures.  Did that make any sense? 

Anyway, I'm going the three UM506 route which solves my problems and lets me keep manual control as well as add automated control of my screen.  Hopefully when those module get here it won't cause a new set of problems I'll have to post about.

Thanks for everyones help.
Rich

[dave w]

By the way, for anyone interested, the thing in the top left of the picture is the same as the thing in the bottom right of the picture which is not the same as what is marked to be cut in other pictures.  Did that make any sense? 

Yes.

There is two mods for local sense. One mod interupts the path to pin seven of controller chip in the "old style" appliiance module. Cutting a jumper or the trace disables the local control FUNCTION but does not kill the sensing current through the load.

The second mod actually disables the local sense current by interupting the current loop. That is what cutting the diode was supposed to do. Since I have none of the new design modules, it was only a hopeful guess based on the physical location of the diode.

See this: http://www.remotehead.com/Docs/ModificationToAnApplianceModuleToReduceCurrentLeakage.pdf

Obviously on the new design module, this diode does not perform the same function.

[specter333]

Right, I understood that you were making a guess based upon the simular location to the diode on the older design.   I was just trying to say that I don't think this piece is a diode based on looks, actually I have no idea what either one is.  The diode in the photos is black with silver stripes.  This thing is brown with colored identifying stripes, like a resistor, but it has a flat top like a diode. 

I believe I'm past the point of needing to disable local control but if anyone would like better photos of the board I would be happy to post them.

Thanks again.
Rich

[dave w]

I was just trying to say that I don't think this piece is a diode based on looks, actually I have no idea what either one is.  The diode in the photos is black with silver stripes.  This thing is brown with colored identifying stripes, like a resistor, but it has a flat top like a diode. 

Maybe it is an older style carbon resistor. Originally (back in the old days  ) resistors did have a more square corner look...like the black diode.