Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: lost x10 signals suddenly in New York City apartment  (Read 4841 times)

steinwei

  • Newbie
  • Helpful Post Rating: 0
  • Posts: 1
lost x10 signals suddenly in New York City apartment
« on: August 21, 2007, 11:58:05 AM »

I live in an apartment building in New York City.  My x10 devices (smarthome software and powelinc controller, x10 mini timer, assorted lamp and appliance modules) have worked flawlessly for years.  All of a sudden, nothing is working.  We've introduced no new electronic devices in the apartment.  Could a neighbor in another apartment have introuduced a device that could be blocking my x10 signals?  What cah I do about it?
Logged

JeffVolp

  • Community Organizer
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Helpful Post Rating: 122
  • Posts: 2299
    • XTB Home Page
Re: lost x10 signals suddenly in New York City apartment
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2007, 12:28:12 PM »

Quote
Could a neighbor in another apartment have introduced a device that could be blocking my x10 signals?

Yup.

Quote
What can I do about it?

Move...

First, you need to find out what is going on.  It may be noise, or it could be something on the same distribution system that is loading your X10 signal.  You probably have an electrical panel for your own apartment, but the main power feeding that panel may be shared with adjacent apartments.  A X10 signal level meter, such as the Elk ESM1, will help you identify what is going on. 

Electronic devices that attenuate the X10 signal are fairly common.  If that is the cause, you can probably solve the problem by boosting your signal level.

Compact fluorescent light bulbs or some other electronic device in an adjacent apartment may be injecting noise onto your powerline.  Unfortunately, unless you can get your neighbor to eliminate the noise source by installing filters, or perhaps switching to different CFLs, that will be tough to solve.  You would need modules that incorporate AGC, and a strong enough signal to override the noise.  The only other option would be to install the big X10 PZZ01 / Leviton 6284 whole-house block at your distribution panel.  That is certainly a job for an electrician.

Jeff
Logged
X-10 automation since the BSR days

Walt2

  • Advanced Member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Helpful Post Rating: 28
  • Posts: 787
Re: lost x10 signals suddenly in New York City apartment
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2007, 01:13:42 PM »

You have a neighbor who just got either a "wireless" baby monitor, or a "wireless" telephone extender (RCA makes those), that "broadcasts" over the AC power lines.   :'(
Logged
* Sears Home Control System, Radio Shack Plug 'n Power, NuTone, Stanley LightMaker, BSR, HomeLink.
* Tecmar Device Master, CP290 (LightHouse), CM11A (AH), CM14A (AH2), CM15A (AHPro).

TakeTheActive

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Helpful Post Rating: 126
  • Posts: 1047
  • Old !@#$% Tinkerer!
Re: lost x10 signals suddenly in New York City apartment
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2007, 04:38:31 AM »

You have a neighbor who just got either a "wireless" baby monitor, or a "wireless" telephone extender (RCA makes those), that "broadcasts" over the AC power lines.   :'(
How can you (from your REMOTE LOCATION, without running any sort of diagnostics) provide such an ABSOLUTE answer? ??? ::)
Logged
Low Post Count != Low Knowledge - High Post Count != High Knowledge ;)

ADVICE TO X-10 NEWBIES FROM AN X-10 OLD-TIMER

Walt2

  • Advanced Member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Helpful Post Rating: 28
  • Posts: 787
Re: lost x10 signals suddenly in New York City apartment
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2007, 07:27:33 AM »

How can you (from your REMOTE LOCATION, without running any sort of diagnostics) provide such an ABSOLUTE answer? ??? ::)

Experience.   Plain and simple experience.
Logged
* Sears Home Control System, Radio Shack Plug 'n Power, NuTone, Stanley LightMaker, BSR, HomeLink.
* Tecmar Device Master, CP290 (LightHouse), CM11A (AH), CM14A (AH2), CM15A (AHPro).

steven r

  • Advanced Member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Helpful Post Rating: 74
  • Posts: 2189
  • Halloween with X10
Re: lost x10 signals suddenly in New York City apartment
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2007, 10:13:02 AM »

You have a neighbor who just got either a "wireless" baby monitor, or a "wireless" telephone extender (RCA makes those), that "broadcasts" over the AC power lines.   :'(
How can you (from your REMOTE LOCATION, without running any sort of diagnostics) provide such an ABSOLUTE answer? ??? ::)
While no one can say absolutely what the problem is from a "REMOTE LOCATION", I sure wouldn't bet against it.
Logged
BVC let's me tell my camera where to go!
:) Murphy is my beta testing pal. He helps me find problems whether I like it or not. :)

gil shultz

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Helpful Post Rating: 4
  • Posts: 139
Re: lost x10 signals suddenly in New York City apartment
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2007, 02:26:02 AM »

Good Evening,

I am 99.99% sure something was connected to the power distribution system in your building that attenuates the signal.  Any thing new that you noticed.  Borrow a friend who knows how to hook up a scope to your power line and look at the zero cross.  That will show the noise.  Large variable speed motors and or lighting systems tend to use zero cross to trigger the triac or scrs.  Guess where your x-10 signal sets.  The problem may only be on one of the three phases (If the building is of any size it most probably has a 3 phase main feeds).

Take the equipment to another location and see if it works, if so the problem is in your building.

Following below is a bit on how the stuff works and attenuation, that is what kills the signal or noise which swamps it out.

Explanation:

Assuming all the equipment is operating properly we know by definition that the signal is modulated on the power line at 120 KHz at the zero crossing point.  This allows a usable signal of a few volts to be impressed on a line that has over 150V peak voltage.  These signals are filtered with tuned circuits hence there is the possibility of alignment problems but they get a much stronger signal in the pass band.  Good filters etc will give good results; poor filters will give marginal results.  Remember that these units are low priced and at best have marginal filtering abilities.

The unit putting the voltage on the power line (transmitter) can only put out a few volts.  The receiving unit (module) has a minimum sensitivity level for a valid signal.  If the signal level is below the minimum erratic or no function occurs.  Conversely if the signal is above the minimum the unit should operate properly.

Noise will swamp the front end of the receiving unit decreasing or eliminating its ability to receive and disseminate a valid signal. Noise is typically generated by an outside source.

The carrying media (power wiring) was never intended to handle low frequency RF (Radio Frequency) signals not was it designed to block them. The solution is to get enough good signal to the module so it can perform properly.  Solving this gets complicated.

Attenuation of the signal is the proper way of saying the signal level is reduced.  There will always be some attenuation of the signal in any normal system.  The trick is to minimize the attenuation or at least keep it low enough so a good signal can get through. 

There are three primary things capacitance, inductance and resistance that will attenuate the signal to a non usable level.  Expect a combination of two or three of these working in conjunction to be causing the problem.

House wiring is a source of capacitance; the effect is definitely there at 120 KHz hence line length will have an effect.  The resistance in typical power wiring will have no effect.  The inductance can depend how the wire is routed and against what. 

Power transformers are designed to operate at 50 or 60 Hz; consequently they have a high inductance which will stop the 120 KHz signal.  You see this in a typical home and add a bridge between the phases to cause the 120 KHz to go around the transformer. The advantage of this is that your signals do not pass through to other systems.

AC (Alternating Current) loads such as heaters, lights etc consume AC and do not normally interfere with 120 KHz signals.  Motors may or may not depending on there design.   On the other hand electronic equipment most by design attenuates the 120 KHz signals.  This is because the FCC (Federal Communications Commission) has placed restrictions on both conducted and radiated emissions allowed on commercial and residential equipment.  Radiated emissions go through the air while conducted emissions go through the wiring.  We are concerned with conducted emissions when working with X10.

Look at the cord that connects the video from your monitor to your computer.  There is a swelling of some type near one or both of the plugs.  This normally contains ferrite which attenuates high frequency signals.

Electronics needs DC (Direct Current) to operate internally.  This comes from a power supply of some type.  In bygone years most power supplies were built with a 60 HZ input transformer which isolated the unit from the power line (120 KHz as well). Depending on the transformer design many of these were not a problem.

Then came transformer less electronics such as TVs, these use higher frequencies which have to be isolated from the power line.  The easiest way was to attenuate them.  The attenuators were cheep but efficient and would kill a broad range of frequencies including 120 KHz signals.  These do not pay any attention to the source of the signal they just attenuated them; this is consistent across just about all power supplies.

The cost of energy has kept increasing to the point energy conservation is important.  The best way to save energy is to use less.  The original power supplies at best could get an efficiency of 50%.  The transformer less designs was approaching the 70% efficiency range. This is not good enough today so the switch mode power supplies have become popular.  These are typically better then 95% efficient.  These use high frequency designs and power MOSFETs (Metal Oxide Semiconductor Field Effects Transistor).  The MOSFETs can switch in the Megahertz range, and generate lots of high frequency noise.  Consequently the line attenuators are much better and also attenuate the 120 KHz even more.
 
This is a short and simple explanation of what may be causing the problem; it is not an explanation of how to solve it, that is your job. The problems can and sometimes do get much more complicated then what I have covered her.

Good Luck
Gil Shultz
Logged
 

X10.com | About X10 | X10 Security Systems | Cameras| Package Deals
© Copyright 2014-2016 X10.com All rights reserved.