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[kent]

Hello,
I recently replaced some smart home swichlinc 23885 relay switches (which worked only about 1% of the time on my fans and florescent lights) with some XPS3 relay switches.  So far I have been extremely happy with the XPS3 switches.  They have been turning on and off my ceiling fan's and florescent lights 100% correctly until my latest install.

My problem with the latest XPS3 switch I installed for a ceiling fan is it will turn it on just fine by remote, but when I turn it off by remote, usually it will turn off and back on 1 or two times.  The end result is that it is still on.  Sometimes even turning it off locally will make it go off/on again.  I bought several switches and replaced it thinking it may be bad but the other one does the same thing.  Could this ceiling fan be different than the others causing excessive noise making it turn back on?  Any thoughts or ideas to fix?  By the way, there is a WS12A light switch in the same box controlling it's light working perfectly.

[Boiler]

My problem with the latest XPS3 switch I installed for a ceiling fan is it will turn it on just fine by remote, but when I turn it off by remote, usually it will turn off and back on 1 or two times.  The end result is that it is still on.  Sometimes even turning it off locally will make it go off/on again.  I bought several switches and replaced it thinking it may be bad but the other one does the same thing.  Could this ceiling fan be different than the others causing excessive noise making it turn back on?  Any thoughts or ideas to fix?  By the way, there is a WS12A light switch in the same box controlling it's light working perfectly.

Kent,

First of all, welcome back (I think).  Your profile shows you as having registered back in '04.  Another Oldtimer?

I don't have any good answers to your problem.  However, Steven R had a similar problem with a XPFM inline module and a fan installation.  The thread deals with the possibility that "New" XPFM modules have local control (ability of the module to sense the load manually switching on/off and activate the output).  The other option is that back EMF is tricking the unit into turning back on.

That thread is located here : XPFM with Fan

I've never heard of a XPS3 with local control, but there are quite a few new modules in the X10 line that have the same numbering as the old. 

Did you by chance purchase this XPS3 recently?  Could you provide a date code?

Thanks,
Boiler

{Boiler Edit - defined use of local control}

[kent]

Thanks for the reply and yes I am old timer.  I have been using X10 since 1996.  I originally joined here when I replaced my active home cm11a with the new active home pro and was having several lockup issues and then I realized it was just released.  My old CM11a was so reliable I couldn't take the lockups.  I returned the active home pro and got a smart home controller which worked well and just haven't visited since then.

Anyway,
The XPS3 is a decora sytle 20A relay light switch, so of course it has local control.  Perhaps you are confusing it with another module.  I just bought it new a few days ago from an ebay store so I don't know how old it is but it has a sticker of 07b09.  Thanks for the link.  This problem fan is likely a cheap builder's special fan that I am supposed to swap with another fan anyway.  I'll check the connections at the fan and then see if the problem continues with the nicer fan but will check the speed first to see if that makes a difference.

[TakeTheActive]

...The other option is that back EMF is tricking the unit into turning back on (phase issue??).

That thread is located here : XPFM with Fan

I also go along with the reverse EMF theory. Specifically, give dave w's suggestion a go:

I'm not sure what's going on here but I suspect back EMF from the fan motor in reduced speed mode may be triggering the XPFM module back on...

...I have seen this before and Oldtimer pegged it. Large back EMF spike develops (because of the cap) when the XPFM opens the relay. This is confusing the local control. Interestingly I have had this problem crop up on Appliance modules which worked fine for long periods and then suddenly developed the problem, which to me says perhaps something in the module fails or "ages" (zener clamp?) in the module.

Can you connect a light (40W - 100W or even a 7W nightlight on an extenson cord, sans plug) across the fan leads temporarly? If the problem goes away then the local control is being falsed.

You might try another module...

[Charles Sullivan]

The XPS3 is a decora sytle 20A relay light switch, so of course it has local control. Perhaps you are confusing it with another module.  I just bought it new a few days ago from an ebay store so I don't know how old it is but it has a sticker of 07b09.  Thanks for the link.  This problem fan is likely a cheap builder's special fan that I am supposed to swap with another fan anyway.  I'll check the connections at the fan and then see if the problem continues with the nicer fan but will check the speed first to see if that makes a difference.

By "local control" we don't mean operating the switch manually, but a property of some modules whereby turning on the controlled appliance itself will cause the module to turn on.  Plug-in modules do this but wall switch modules aren't supposed to.  Some modules without local control can still turn on from transient spikes.  E.g., the SR227 Receptacle Module doesn't have local control per se, but jiggling the plug of a lamp when inserting it into the receptacle can make it turn on.

X-10 has recently redesigned the circuitry in some (or all) of their modules.   Firmware changes were made at the same time which weren't necessarily well thought out or tested by X-10.  Whether your XPS3 is old or new may be difficult to determine without disassembly.

[Boiler]

The XPS3 is a decora sytle 20A relay light switch, so of course it has local control.  Perhaps you are confusing it with another module.  I just bought it new a few days ago from an ebay store so I don't know how old it is but it has a sticker of 07b09.  Thanks for the link.  This problem fan is likely a cheap builder's special fan that I am supposed to swap with another fan anyway.  I'll check the connections at the fan and then see if the problem continues with the nicer fan but will check the speed first to see if that makes a difference.

Sorry Kent,
The use of the term "Local Control" with a wall switch was misleading.  As Charles stated, I was referring to the modules' ability to sense the Load manually turning ON/OFF.  This is used regularly in plug in Appliance and Lamp modules where people want to manually switch a lamp (mechanical switch on the lamp socket) and have the module sense the load change and turn ON/OFF.  The load monitoring circuit works well with resistive loads.  It can, however, be fooled by capacitive or inductive loads.

Again, we have never seen this circuitry in a XPS3.  Bottom line is - you should not be having this problem with a relay switch module.

The date code of your unit (07b09) equates to the 9th week of Feb '07.  This places it after the manufacture of Steven R's XPFM (thread that I referred you to).  It's possible that this unit has additional circuitry that we are not aware of (this is the first report of a problem that I am aware of).

You mentioned that you had other XPS3's controlling fans.  Would you consider swapping two units?  It wouldn't be conclusive due to the difference in fan models, but if the "suspect" XPS3 doesn't work in two locations it would increase the likelihood that it's a "new model".

Other forum members have had success in calling X10 and reporting "new modules" as defective.  Apparently, they have some "old" stock that they are still drawing from.

Please keep us posted on your progress.  We're trying to stay on top of these "new unit" releases.  You're helping us as much (or more) as we are helping you.

Thanks,
Boiler

[Brian H]

If it has new features. Guess the new vs old chart gets longer. 

[kent]

Thanks for all the replies and the clarification of local control.  While local control is useful for the appliance modules, I really don't see a use for it in a light switch module.  I didn't realize it, but the fan was in the MED position.  I switched it to high and so far it seems to be working fine.  In the low position it does it occasionally.  Brian H. indicates it has the new features, but I will verify mine has local control tomorrow.  Seems like this is a new feature on this model so assume there is no mod available to disable the local control.  If no mod is available, will a filter fix this?

[AutomatedOutlet]

I think the issue is that the device you are controlling is generating noise on the powerline. You need to install a filter between the switch and the fixture.

[Boiler]

...While local control is useful for the appliance modules, I really don't see a use for it in a light switch module. 

...  If no mod is available, will a filter fix this?

I agree completely with your position on the use of local control on relay modules.  I don't believe this should be included on anything that is being used with an Inductive or Capacitive load.  It's simply too easy to fool the circuit into activating the module.


Filtering -
The filters are designed to eliminate noise in the X10 communication frequency range.  If your fan were a simply noise source, it would be generating noise that would prevent reliable communication with would XPS3.  This normally results in your being able to remotely turn the load on but not off (module can't respond because to noise is preventing your X10 communication from reaching it).  Noise should not affect the manual activation of the switch (local presses).

In your case the module appears to be re-activated (after a local off press) by back EMF from the motor which the XPS3 interprets as a Local load change (i.e. local control).  Without knowing what the back EMF looks like (level, frequency ETC) it's impossible to say whether a filter will help (my bet is no).  This will also vary with the configuration of the fan motor itself.

Bypassing -
Placing a resistive load in parallel with your fan will typically work because it bypasses the back EMF to the neutral connection.  This reduces the amplitude enough that the "local control" feature isn't activated.  I'm guessing that you don't want a lamp permanently wired in parallel with your fan.

Determining if you have "true" local control -
If your XPS3 has local control circuitry, it should activate when a 60W resistive load is switched on it's output.  If you have a way of connecting a lamp across the output of the switch this should put the issue to bed.  If you can activate the XPS3 by switching the lamp on (at the lamp) it has local control.

[rthrash]

...While local control is useful for the appliance modules, I really don't see a use for it in a light switch module. 

...  If no mod is available, will a filter fix this?

I agree completely with your position on the use of local control on relay modules.  I don't believe this should be included on anything that is being used with an Inductive or Capacitive load.  It's simply too easy to fool the circuit into activating the module.


Filtering -
The filters are designed to eliminate noise in the X10 communication frequency range.  If your fan were a simply noise source, it would be generating noise that would prevent reliable communication with would XPS3.  This normally results in your being able to remotely turn the load on but not off (module can't respond because to noise is preventing your X10 communication from reaching it).  Noise should not affect the manual activation of the switch (local presses).

In your case the module appears to be re-activated (after a local off press) by back EMF from the motor which the XPS3 interprets as a Local load change (i.e. local control).  Without knowing what the back EMF looks like (level, frequency ETC) it's impossible to say whether a filter will help (my bet is no).  This will also vary with the configuration of the fan motor itself.

Bypassing -
Placing a resistive load in parallel with your fan will typically work because it bypasses the back EMF to the neutral connection.  This reduces the amplitude enough that the "local control" feature isn't activated.  I'm guessing that you don't want a lamp permanently wired in parallel with your fan.

Determining if you have "true" local control -
If your XPS3 has local control circuitry, it should activate when a 60W resistive load is switched on it's output.  If you have a way of connecting a lamp across the output of the switch this should put the issue to bed.  If you can activate the XPS3 by switching the lamp on (at the lamp) it has local control.

 
Did anyone ever come up with a good solution for this? My XPS3 does NOT have local control, and this only happens when the Fan is on med. or low speed with the lamp off.

[Brian H]

Since the bulb seems to stop this problam. It is a good chance on medium and low the motor is making enough power line noise to trigger it back on. Even with no Local Control. I believe the switch still has a sensing circuit in it to see if the mechanical switch is on or off.
A wired in X10 filter on the fan after the switch may do the trick. Boilers adding a resistor across the fan motor may also work.