Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[LittleLarry]

 Is there a rule for how far away furniture has to be from x10 modules such as the LM465 in order to prevent fire hazards?

For instance, I have these 2 end tables near a couch. The end tables are made of wood with a 40 watt lamp on top of them:

http://www.target.com/itso-1x2-Cube-Door-Espresso/dp/B0013TP0A2/qid=1219475918/ref=br_1_7/602-7169703-9998216?ie=UTF8&node=676257011&frombrowse=1&rh=&page=1

If these end tables were to be say, only 2 or 3 inches away from an x10 module such as the LM465, would that present a problem?

I hate to have them that close but in order for the design to work in this one room, I have no good choice except to have the LM465 close to a piece of wooden furniture unless I have all the electrical outlets moved and I really don't want to do that.

Do you have to be really careful with the placement of the modules or do they not get that warm, or are they pretty safe?

Also, I read about the cfl lights causing them (lm465 models) to overheat and start on fire, and well, that is pretty scary if you think about it. I mean, how easy it could happen. Say, if you were out of town, and your wife or kids (or if you had a cleaning person even, etc.) inadvertantly changed a bulb in one of your lm465 controlled lamps to a cfl bulb without your knowledge.

Another scenario would be what if someone unwittingly plugged in another device to the lm465 while you were away, thinking it was just a single outlet surge protector or something, and not knowing it was meant for a lamp. According to x10's own documenation, they say that is a fire hazzard.

Makes me wonder also about if the other brands are more safety conscience than regular x10 devices are. I would think some sort of extra fuses, or fireproof materials, etc. could be used to make the modules but who knows.

The other brands seem ridiculously overpriced, however, if they are safer, then perhaps the extra cost is justified? Anyone know if the others brands do in fact have more safety features than the lm465's do?

I'm new to all this and I really want to get into home automation but I am also very paranoid (perfect paranoia is perfect awareness I always say).

I would rather error on the side of caution so it is why I am asking these questions. Hopefully they don't see too silly to anyone.

I think the dimming features of the lm465 seems really cool and I want to get some but I don't want to risk new fire hazzards introduced into the home either.

[Brian H]

2 or 3 inches should be fine for an LM465. I have pushed one [as a test] with a much higher than 300 watts it was rated for [500 watts]. It got very warm to touch in about 30 minutes. 40 watts should not even make the thing more than slightly warm.

The B&D FWLR Lamp Module; OEM from X10; did have a fuse in it as do the Smarthome Insteon modules. The B&D's may still be found as they where discontinued.

Non dimming CFLs and other non incandescent lights loads should not be used with a lamp module. The device; used to dim; modifies the AC delivered to the load and CFLs electronics may not like it. If the CFL is UL Approved it is required to fail in a safe method. Many of my old ones have fuses in them and the plastic has to be self extinguishing if it starts to burn.  Yes not the most comforting thing in the world. I have used dimmable CFLs with lamp modules. Many may flicker at low levels and work best if started at 100% to warm up but they do work.

[LittleLarry]

The B&D FWLR Lamp Module; OEM from X10; did have a fuse in it as do the Smarthome Insteon modules. The B&D's may still be found as they where discontinued.

Thanks.

I wonder if this extra fuse in the current Insteon modules has been used as the decision maker to go with Insteon's over the lma465's in many instances or not. I mean, it definately makes me look closer at the Insteon's, however, their prices are so high that they kind of price me out of the technology. I currently have 2 lamps I want to do the testing on, but if the testing goes well (with whichever lamp module I choose to go with), I of course then would want to add another 4 to 6 lamps to the mix, which, with Insteon's, is a very expensive proposition compared to the x10 lm465's.

I wonder if anyone has done a side by side comparison yet of the lm465 versus the Insteon LampLinc dimmer?

It would be nice to see side by side comparisons like that. I see those types of comparisons with video cards and hard drives all the time, but perhaps that sort of comparison is not common for this type of technology. I know the Insteons are fairly new as well, so they probably don't have the history of x10, but then again the history of x10 is not great in some aspects, especially with the older cm11a modules overheating, the lm465's overheating with cfl's, the lm465's not getting a hardware revision level they should have, and I guess, lack of extra fuses that it sounds like to me they should require, but then again, the prices of the x10 modules are very very reasonable, that is one of the main reasons I am on the fence about which to go with.

I also think that Insteon's are too new so they don't really seem to have a history yet because they are so new, which can be a bad thing also.

Decisions, decisions.

Then, you also have the ridiculously overpriced Levitons, what is with that?

http://www.smarthome.com/4293.html

I can't even understand that kind of pricing, it just doesn't register in my brain correctly. I mean, $50 for 1 lamp module?

For that price, they better have built in fire extinguishers with voice alerting capability, and they better sing me a song or two every night before I go to sleep. I guess you can call that sticker shock.

Does anyone on this forum actually use those? If so, please help me understand what you are getting with the extra $40 for that module. I am assuming it is much safer than the lm465 (please elaborate on the safety features), but what else does that extra $ give you with the Leviton HCP03-10W?

"One-button programming allows you to assign addresses to the module electronically, instead of fussing with those hard-to-use address wheels."

I mean, for $40, I think I could get by with the hard to use address wheel. I don't see the difficulty in using those wheels, maybe I'm missing something, or maybe they are trying to market them for people that find their shoes difficult with hard to tie shoestrings or something. I also understand quality levels though, so perhaps I am just being ignorant of the level of quality that is going into the HCP03-10W models.











 

[Brian H]

Any Lamp Module will not work well with a CFL except dimable ones. The 4 for 1 on sale X10s or the $49.00 ea. ones.
The fuse in the Insteon is a 4 amp slow blow type for severe overloads or prolonged moderate overloads. I ran an Insteon for at least a 1/2 hour over loaded with only the case getting hot and it started to smell warm. I think the CFL would fail long before the lamp module or fuse in it. All the dead CFLs I have taken apart have a fusible device in it to interupt the circuit.
A drastic overload. A 1200 watt heater did bow the fuse very quickly.

  Don't try this at home folks. I decided to kill it big time. Bypass the fuse and again hit it with a 1200 watt heater. Outside for more safety. Large BANG the smell and smoke of burned PC Board runs and material.

The extra cost will get things like setable ramp rates; scenes membership and setable on levels.
Downside is they are two way devices and can absorb X10 signals if not the sending unit. So mixed systems can get worse as more Insteon modules are added.

[LittleLarry]

The extra cost will get things like setable ramp rates; scenes membership and setable on levels.
Downside is they are two way devices and can absorb X10 signals if not the sending unit. So mixed systems can get worse as more Insteon modules are added.

Definately sounds like it is imparitive to make the right choice from the beginning then, since the systems can't co-exist with each other very well.

I ran an Insteon for at least a 1/2 hour over loaded with only the case getting hot and it started to smell warm. I think the CFL would fail long before the lamp module or fuse in it.

I know it may sound lame, but I guess what I am surprised about is that these lamp modules do not have a dummy light, or something that flashes whenever a cfl is plugged in versus an incandescent. Perhaps that is a future feature, or something that is too difficult or expensive to detect? I mean, if you plugged in a cfl and all of a sudden you see 2 flashing red led lights that you never noticed before, that would probably cause some persons not familiar with the lamp modules to wonder if there was an issue, or even an audible beep warning noise, etc.

Something, other than overheating, bulb destruction, and burning smell type odors should be incorporated into these lamp module designs it would seem.


Looks like I may be out of luck for 4 of my lamps with the HCP03-10W as 4 of them are 40 watt bulbs:

Manufacturer: Leviton
Manufacturer Product No.: HCP03-10W 
Compatibility: 60W minimum, 300W maximum

[JeffVolp]

Definately sounds like it is imparitive to make the right choice from the beginning then, since the systems can't co-exist with each other very well.

Don't rule out using a combined X10 and Insteon system.  Here was a recent post to comp.home.automation:

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.home.automation/browse_thread/thread/1afd72b1405beac6/56b0426c014ed099

I know it may sound lame, but I guess what I am surprised about is that these lamp modules do not have a dummy light, or something that flashes whenever a cfl is plugged in versus an incandescent. Perhaps that is a future feature, or something that is too difficult or expensive to detect? I mean, if you plugged in a cfl and all of a sudden you see 2 flashing red led lights that you never noticed before, that would probably cause some persons not familiar with the lamp modules to wonder if there was an issue, or even an audible beep warning noise, etc.

While it is technically feasible to identify the difference between an incandescent and a CFL load, the additional cost to do so would likely make such a feature impractical from an economic standpoint.  And, it would not be possible to identify the difference between a dimmable CFL, such as the old Phillips Earthlights, and those that can be damaged by a dimmer.

Something, other than overheating, bulb destruction, and burning smell type odors should be incorporated into these lamp module designs it would seem.

How about following the instructions that come with the CFL?  Most say not for use with dimmers.

Looks like I may be out of luck for 4 of my lamps with the HCP03-10W as 4 of them are 40 watt bulbs:

I have them here too (the Leviton plug-in lamp module), and this instruction sheet lists no minimum wattage.  We use them with small 4 watt bulbs in Christmas candles with no problem.

Jeff

[LittleLarry]

Don't rule out using a combined X10 and Insteon system.  Here was a recent post to comp.home.automation:

How about following the instructions that come with the CFL?  Most say not for use with dimmers.

I have them here too (the Leviton plug-in lamp module), and this instruction sheet lists no minimum wattage.  We use them with small 4 watt bulbs in Christmas candles with no problem.

Thanks, that's good to know about mixing systems.

Indeed, was just mentioning the hypotheticals, like when grandma is housesitting or baby sister is over and a bulb goes out. There could be a chance they would just search in the house for the nearest spare bulb and replace it without knowing only an incandescent should be used (everyone seems to think that cfl's are the future and should replace all incandescents with them). It is a long shot but could happen. I would never personally put a cfl in a non-cfl lamp module but I could see how it could happen when persons who don't set up the x10 systems cohabit with people that do (roommates come to mind here as well).

You mentioned you have one of the high priced Levitons. Maybe the Smarthome specs are wrong on that model.

What do you like about that model and do you think it is worth the money?

Close to $50 for 1 lamp module seems excessive (I'm guessing you probably paid much less than that but still several times the price of the lm465), but would you recommend them, and if so, under what circumstances? Do they have quite a few extra safety features \ dimming controls, and what do you like best about them and how do you think they compare to the much lower priced lm465's?

I hope it's not like the Apple syndrome where everything Apple sells is double the price of most other items (Apple lcd monitors come to mind here, they are so overpriced).

I'm looking for lamp modules with many dimming and safety features but even still, that $50 module seems very, very expensive to me and I am just trying to see if they are really worth it or not.

[JeffVolp]

When we built this house we upgraded to Leviton X10 compatible switches with true rocker action.  They have worked perfectly, and I would certainly recommend them to others.  It turns out that the lamp modules we have are the earlier Leviton version that does not include many of the features in the newer units.  I did check the Leviton data sheet on the one you mentioned, and it says nothing about minimum load current:

www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ibcGetAttachment.jsp?cItemId=-GXNXp3sm-cFi9qn3wGOLA&label=IBE&appName=IBE

The minimum load is necessary for the 2-wire wall switches, which must obtain their power and signal return through the load.  Too high a load resistance (low wattage) causes those switches to malfunction.  Lamp modules have access to both hot and neutral, so they will work with much lower loads.

We did use X10 wall switches at the other house, and they worked fine for many years.  Sometimes the push-on / push-off action was a little tricky, and we often had to check outside to see if the exterior lights actually did switch on (or off).  That is the prime reason why we selected the Leviton true rocker action switches for this house.  We still use mostly X10 lamp and appliance modules.  There have been a few dead soldiers over the years, but some of the original BSR modules still work fine after almost 30 years.  I have never had a lamp module fail due to overheating.  The failures have been either a code wheel wiper breaking loose, or a popped triac from an incandescent "flashbulb".

The new Leviton lamp modules do include their "Intellisense" gated AGC, so they should work well even in high noise environments.  Whether they are worth 4X the cost of a similar X10 module is something you will have to decide for yourself.  The Leviton lamp modules we have were not much more than the equivant X10 modules.  Something to investigate is that the newer X10 lamp modules also include some advanced features.  I don't think they include AGC yet, but someone more familiar with the newer units may prove me wrong.

Jeff

[dave w]

I don't think they include AGC yet, but someone more familiar with the newer units may prove me wrong.

Jeff

FWIW
The word I have is: anything with "Soft Start" will also have AGC. Don't know if they have upgraded the Appliance Modules yet, but assume it is planned. Perhaps the Appliance Modules being advertised as "CFL controllers" are new units with AGC(?).