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[bitman]

Well I thought for the longest time that the used chime (at A8) that I bought on eBay was thermal as it would work most of the time but every so often it would quit responding to it's address and replugging it would result in the familiar power up chime, but it would not solve the problem. Only leaving it unplugged for 1/2 hour or longer would bring it back to receiving PLC commands. Furthermore, it would do this no matter where I plugged it in, no matter what else was on or off, no particular time of day. I even reflowed nearly all the solder in it but nothing I did would solve it.

Today I received a brand new chime and in about an hour it did the same thing.
When it fails it won't chime when I attempt to fire it off with any device on the A house code which is trancieved by a TM751 on the same floor. The TM751 is in charge of the A network which is upstairs in the living area flawlessly controlling lamp and appliance controllers at A 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,(8?),9,10.

So, I swapped codes with the fireplace at A6 and the chime that was just not responding to trancieved A8 worked at A6 and the fireplace on an appliance controller at A8 stopped working! 

But why?

So I opened up active home to watch A8 and could see it being put on the power line. The CM15a is told not to trancieve the A network. Then I noticed something. When A8 would show up in the activity monitor I could see the AHP fireplace module at A8 going on and off graphically, but the fireplace was not responding to that. HOWEVER, if I took my mouse and switched the fireplace switch that was just toggling in response to PLC commands, then the fireplace came on and went off at I toggled it.

AS THOUGH: The A8 from the tm751 sometimes does not work at the module level (edge of the network) even though AHP can see the traffic. BUT the CM15a down in the basement can put A8 on the powerline and it works up here.

I can do without A8, but I just want to know why this might be. As it's likely that this will bite me again someday.

I have a macro that is triggered by A8 (now it has been moved to A6) but I don't understand why that might be an issue.

I'm sorry this was so long, I hope I was thorough.

Thanks in advance,

:Ron
 

[BVD]

Ron,
If you get a chance just for the fun of it have the switch send an RF command A8 ON and see if the device still works. I'm thinking it won't.
I think from the sound of your description the CM15A is seeing the activity from the remote and showing up in the activity log and toggling the switch on and off. Because you have the CM15A set NOT to transceive house code A it is not being put on the power line from it. On the other hand when you click on the switch with your mouse you are putting it on the power line from the CM15A and thus the module responds. By sending an RF command that would force the TM751 to transceive the command onto the power line and that is why I think the module will not respond any better than trying to turn it on with a remote.

Till Later,
Bob

[bitman]

Ron,
If you get a chance just for the fun of it have the switch send an RF command A8 ON and see if the device still works. I'm thinking it won't.

Till Later,
Bob

I'm ready. How do I do that?

[Puck]

I have a macro that is triggered by A8 (now it has been moved to A6) but I don't understand why that might be an issue.

Is there anything in that macro that immediately puts out a PLC signal? Since the TM751 is not polite, and the A8 macro executes when it receives an RF A8 signal, there could be a PLC collision happening.

If you just swapped addresses with the A6 & A8 modules, and not a physical move, and the problem moved with the A8 address, then I suspect a signal collision occurring at A8.

[bitman]

Yes.

The chime code is initiated wirelessly by a eagle eye on the deck (dog detector). most times it rings the chime. In all cases it triggers a macro witch does nothing more than set a dummy module on.

2 things to note:

1. This problem predates AHP and the macros by a year.
2. This morning to my horror, both a6 chimes would not fire but the fireplace at a8 would not.
So for some reason the trouble is where the doggie detector is addressed at.
I have unplugged the fireplace module just for fact finding. I will also change the macro to wait before fireing a PLC to set a dummy module just in case I have a collision and two problems.

The dog detector is supposed to be just between the Motion detector, the tm751 and the chime.
One way to fix it has been to unplug the chime for a while. I only recently began to watch the chime address with AHP for another purpose.

Fun Fun Fun.

 

[BVD]

Ron,
If you get a chance just for the fun of it have the switch send an RF command A8 ON and see if the device still works. I'm thinking it won't.

Till Later,
Bob

I'm ready. How do I do that?

Use a bogie switch like A15. Let A15 trigger a macro on. On the right side of the screen you have a drop down box for rooms, scroll down through and you will see RF Commands. Drag RF On/Off onto your screen. Put the address A8 and select ON. Do the same for turning it off. At least this will answer the question weather A8 is actually responding to RF commands..

Till Later,
Bob

[bitman]

Thanks I'll try that.

[Boiler]

Well I thought for the longest time that the used chime (at A8) that I bought on eBay was thermal as it would work most of the time but every so often it would quit responding to it's address and replugging it would result in the familiar power up chime, but it would not solve the problem. Only leaving it unplugged for 1/2 hour or longer would bring it back to receiving PLC commands. Furthermore, it would do this no matter where I plugged it in, no matter what else was on or off, no particular time of day. I even reflowed nearly all the solder in it but nothing I did would solve it.

Ron,
Ready to take things in a completely different direction?  I'm focusing on your comment that unplugging the chime(s) healed them.  The only explanation that I can come up with for this behavior is electrical noise and AGC (Automatic Gain Control). 

One of our esteemed forum members confirmed that X10 began including AGC in it's WS467 and LM465 modules back when they changed the units in '07.  Since the modules tend to use common receivers, it's likely the Chime modules got AGC as well.

The theory is that you have a new noise source between the TM751 and your chime.  After a period of time the chime cranks up the AGC to desensitize itself to the noise and, as a result, stops responding to the TM751.  Your CM15a, with a better signal level, is still able to communicate.  Unplugging the chime causes the AGC to reset, allowing the unit to respond until it "relearns" the noise environment.  I've seen exactly this type of behavior on Smarthome X10 devices that use AGC.  I haven't encountered it on Leviton units, but their incorporation may be differed (they use "gated" AGC which focuses only on the zero crossing).

Since your fireplace unit is now experiencing problems with communication as well, I'm thinking you have a common noise source somewhere between the TM751 and these devices.

[bitman]

Well,

AGC and noise sounds like a sound theory.
It's a very strange issue with other symptoms that seem both impossible and contradictory have surfaced since I was able to put the thermal theory to bed after getting my second chime.

I'm trying to get my head around it, my usual divide and concur method of trouble shooting only produces more quandary. I'm hoping for the "Ah Ha" moment that has eluded me thus far.

I know this, that the cm15a in the basement always sees the A6 PLC command because I have it trigger a x10 dispacher event that sends me an email. Never fails. I have an inbox full on x10 dispatcher alerts from each time the MD fires on the deck. The CM15a is seeing the PLC as x10 dispatcher is looking for PLC events in this regard.

The chime rings oh, when it wants to.

Funny thing, the chime worked very consistently during the coldest portion of the winter here. For what that's worth. I thought it was fixed. When it began to warm up a bit and it began to not chime, I was so sure that chime was ok that I changed the batteries in the MD. They turned out to be ok batteries and the chime problem remained. 

[Knightrider]

tell us more about the fireplace.  I'm assuming that you have a um506 to activate it.  You don't, by chance, have a modulating gas valve on it, do you?

[bitman]

It's a fake electric stove. 

[Knightrider]

That rules out my theory.

[bitman]

Here's something else.

My wireless remotes, which basically do what the MD does, will NOT fire the chime but operate ALL other devices on ALL other house codes. Neither the icon nor the powerhouse wireless keypad will make it chime.  Let's try an old IBM wired PLC tabletop controller. Yup that worked.  It's got to have something to do with the TM751. but why will it work with lamp controllers (x10 and old IBM ones) and x10 appliance controllers without incident but not work with the chime? - Rhetorical question.

I took the "fireplace" off x10 and put the appliance controller away.
So that would be out of the picture completely.

[Boiler]

Here's something else.

My wireless remotes, which basically do what the MD does, will NOT fire the chime but operate ALL other devices on ALL other house codes. Neither the icon nor the powerhouse wireless keypad will make it chime.  Let's try an old IBM wired PLC tabletop controller. Yup that worked.  It's got to have something to do with the TM751. but why will it work with lamp controllers (x10 and old IBM ones) and x10 appliance controllers without incident but not work with the chime? - Rhetorical question.

I took the "fireplace" off x10 and put the appliance controller away.
So that would be out of the picture completely.

Your tabletop controllers likely have a better output level than the TM751.  These controller tend to have a rather stout signal.  Try plugging a tabletop controller into the same location as the TM751.

Have you tried moving the Chime to the same circuit as the TM751?  If this works, it would go a long way toward confirming noise/absorption.

Older receivers do not have the AGC circuit.  These units might be able to dig the signal out of the noise (at the expense of possible false triggers).  X10Pro was selling 2 different sets of modules at one time.  One advertised with AGC and one without.

Thinking this through a bit:
1) Your CM15a can hear your TM751.
2) CM15a can communicate with your Chime.
3) TM751 can't communicate with Chime.

I think that means you have more than one noise/absorption point in the system -

TM751-----|------Panel-------|-------Chime
                |           |            |
              Noise       |           Noise
                            |
                        CM15a

[bitman]

Alright, I have the TM751 in the same wall socket as the chime.
I'll chime in later and let you know how it goes.