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[glb7272]

How does an xpfm react when the "line in" black wire is switched on. If the module was sent a code to turn on and the line in was turned off and then back on would the blue wire be hot? If the xpfm was sent a off code and the regular wall switch was turned off and on would would the blue wire be hot?

I am planning to use the xpfm in combination with an all off code. The reason for all this is to conserve electricity by turning off the wall switch manually or by a code transited at a certain time.

I do not have a neutral wire in the wall switch.
 
I do not want to use decora switches as all my switches are old school toggle style. This rules out a  xps3 in the ceiling box with a xpss decora switch on the wall.

any other ideas?

Thank You

After reading I see the xpfm has local control. So I could I use the existing switch after the blue wire to trick the local control to turn on the lights manually?

like this:    hot--->xpfm black--->xpfm blue---->existing wall switch---->load(lights)
Now if the XPFM had an off code and the switch was in the on position and I cycle the switch off then back on the lights would turn on based on the local sense correct?
This works on a lm465 so I hope it will work on a xpfm.

[Brian H]

XPFM Must have a neutral power wire. As you have shown it. It will not work.
My XPFM also does not have local control sensing. So toggling a wall switch on the output will not turn it on.

[glb7272]

Haha your right I could not start my car as well without the ground connected.

Sorry I did not place that into my crude diagram

The reason I am going this way is because of the lack of a neutral wire in the switch box so the xpfm will have to go in an existing junction box that is in the attic. I added it when i placed can lights in the ceiling and I used a double gang box so there should be room.



Thanks for the info on the xpfm not having local control. I may have been misinformed as well.

PAM02 3 pin appliance module; They state  it has local sense and it may work for my application (kind of worried about code violations by modifying it and placing it in a box)

I think it cam be done with a PAM02 or PAM01. I may need to place a resistor across the hot and neutral or a incandescent bulb on the first light to prevent flicker.


 

[Brian H]

If the PAM01 or PAM02 are like the latest X10 Appliance Modules. They are much better with CFL Loads. My recent ones do not flicker with CFL bulbs and no longer trigger back on when turned off.

[glb7272]

Thanks for the info. From what I can tell x10 dropped the local control on the new am466 and am486.

I just wished they would change part numbers when they make design changes. That would make things a lot easier. I know dlink etc changes the chips on the same model wireless card but at least they change the revision number (linux woes) . The products I have are older and I am unsure if they have changed this since then.

BTW Brian H thanks for the other posts you have contributed. 60% of the time your posts come up when I search with info I need.

I am also considering using a old ws467 (I have a bunch from my old house) with a relay. Blue to feed the relay and a neutral on the other side of the coil and isolate the load.  only concern is that the resistance is much lower on a cold filament vs a coil on the various relays that I have (unfortunately they are 24 vdc coil and 220 vac coil so i cant just test the idea).

Does anyone know how many watts or milliamps (usa)  the ws467 needs to feed over the filament to operate?

I Guess i could get off my but and find out for myself .

[Brian H]

I just tried a new appliance module and it does like like Local Control is not there anymore.
Users Manual says 40 watts minimum for normal operation. Below 40 watts may flicker or not work 100% correctly.

[dave w]

Does anyone know how many watts or milliamps (usa)  the ws467 needs to feed over the filament to operate?

FWIW
I have a WS467 driving this relay
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/RLY-453/120-VAC-RELAY-DPDT-12-AMPS/-/1.html
but the relay by its self did not pass enough current to the WS467 to get it to work. I had to put a light bulb (I think I used 40W) across the relay coil to get enough power to the WS467.

I don't think this will be useful but is more FWIW:
I have a WS467 driving a CFL, which of course does not work. I used a socket/outlet adaptor to parallel a 7W night light across the CFL and the combined resistance of the 7 W night light and the CFL provided enough power to the WS467 that it worked reliably.  

Brian,
Intersting to know that X10 deleted the local control feature on Appliance modules. Guess I need to order one for the coffee maker, as the hotplate cooling would always turn the appliance module back on. Using another nightlight to prevent the old appliance module from seeing the hotplate thermostat close is it cools.

[Brian H]

I didn't do extensive tests. I  just put a lamp on one and toggled the on off switch.

[Charles Sullivan]

<snip>
I have a WS467 driving a CFL, which of course does not work. I used a socket/outlet adaptor to parallel a 7W night light across the CFL and the combined resistance of the 7 W night light and the CFL provided enough power to the WS467 that it worked reliably. Cold resistance of night light is probably around 2K.
 <snip> 

FWIW:
I just measured the cold resistance of a few small incandescent lamps with a multimeter:
  120 Volt, 4 Watt night light  - 335 Ohms.
  130 Volt, 5 Watt night light  - 354 Ohms.
  120 Volt, 7.5 Watt small 1" diameter bulb - 159 Ohms.
  130 Volt, 25 Watt "torpedo" shape - 54 Ohms.
  130 Volt, 60 Watt "torpedo" shape - 20 Ohms.

I tried hooking the 130V, 25W lamp to a WS467 dimmer switch (2007 "Soft Start" redesign).  It seemed to work fine under X10 PLC control, at least in this room temperature environment.

I then tried the 120V, 7.5W on the same WS467.  It could also be controlled by X10 PLC, but continued to glow a dull orange when nominally turned Off with either X10 PLC or push button.

Just for the heck of it I tried the 130V, 5W on the same WS467.  This lamp couldn't be controlled by either X10 PLC or by push button, but maintained the same dull orange glow.

[glb7272]

Thank you all for the input. It has been very helpful.

Tests made on a lm465 to power a coil on a 120vac relay:


Using a lm465 to power a 3800 ohm coil yields a flasing led (inside the relay).
Placing a 18k resistor (5 resistors- 1/4 watt resistor in parallel, it was all i had and it seemed safe) across the coil yields a alarm clock, the contacts flip on and off.

I think the problem is from the triac but i need to figure out why. I also know that it is my own " ignorance" of electric circuits that prevents me from figuring out a way around this.

The easiest way I see to fix my problem is to place a incandescent load on one of the can lights and use a wall switch but for some reason I cant.

[Brian H]

Is the Lamp Module a new soft start or the older version?
The soft start has much less current on its output when off. The older ones had a DC and AC component on the output when off.

[dave w]

Using a lm465 to power a 3800 ohm coil yields a flasing led (inside the relay).
Placing a 18k resistor (5 resistors- 1/4 watt resistor in parallel, it was all i had and it seemed safe) across the coil yields a alarm clock, the contacts flip on and off.

I think the problem is from the triac but i need to figure out why.
The easiest way I see to fix my problem is to place a incandescent load on one of the can lights and use a wall switch but for some reason I cant.

Triacs depend on load current to saturate the junction, gate current does not do it alone (I used a light bulb to get my relay to work, but may try a resistor (five 18K resistors in parellel is about 3.6K ohms).

[glb7272]

Brian H its an older lm465 one without soft start.

I have a WS467 driving this relay
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/RLY-453/120-VAC-RELAY-DPDT-12-AMPS/-/1.html
but the relay by its self did not pass enough current to the WS467 to get it to work. I had to put a light bulb (I think I used 40W) across the relay coil to get enough power to the WS467.

I figured I would take the neutral wire out of the equation so i used the old lm465. The relay on the coil is the same spec. I placed a resistor across the coil and the highest resistance that did not buzz the contacts was  4.7k or around 3 watts (poor little 1/2 watt resistor... only a few seconds he is OK now).

Triacs depend on load current to saturate the junction, gate current does not do it alone (I used a light bulb to get my relay to work, but may try a resistor (five 18K resistors in parellel is about 3.6K ohms).

Thank you I need to look into this further I get part of that but I need to make it make sense in my head.

Oh the resistors I meant I had 5 of the same value or color codes and started wrapping them together and measured them with a meter to come up with 18k(just being lazy not calculating just using a meter). I was looking for around 22K after reading other post about lm465 and local sense.

[glb7272]

FWIW:
I just measured the cold resistance of a few small incandescent lamps with a multimeter:
  120 Volt, 4 Watt night light  - 335 Ohms.
  130 Volt, 5 Watt night light  - 354 Ohms.
  120 Volt, 7.5 Watt small 1" diameter bulb - 159 Ohms.
  130 Volt, 25 Watt "torpedo" shape - 54 Ohms.
  130 Volt, 60 Watt "torpedo" shape - 20 Ohms.
I tried hooking the 130V, 25W lamp to a WS467 dimmer switch (2007 "Soft Start" redesign).  It seemed to work fine under X10 PLC control, at least in this room temperature environment.

I then tried the 120V, 7.5W on the same WS467.  It could also be controlled by X10 PLC, but continued to glow a dull orange when nominally turned Off with either X10 PLC or push button.

Just for the heck of it I tried the 130V, 5W on the same WS467.  This lamp couldn't be controlled by either X10 PLC or by push button, but maintained the same dull orange glow.

Charles, FWIW haha its worth a lot, you saved me a lot of time digging though junk as my wife calls it and making a mess.
the 25w bulb i checked = 46 Ohms

Anyway thank you all for the info....I guess I need to give back as well...