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[jce1978]

I’ve used X-10 products for more than 10 years and have been quite satisfied with their performance. My wife and I recently bought a new house, so I decided that I would install an X-10 system there. Our new home has Decora-style paddle-type switches, so I replaced some of them with WS12A switches, more from an appearance standpoint than from the need to have local control of my lights. I also purchased a SignaLinc dryer repeater/coupler from SmartHome. I’m running version 3.228 of AHP.

Many of you probably know where this is headed. After many frustrated attempts at getting the WS12As to respond to AHP, I learned through this forum that I need to identify them as LM14As, not WS12As. Furthermore, I learned that my $100 SignaLinc repeater doesn’t do a good job of repeating the extended commands sent to an LM14A.

My plan is to replace the WS12A switches with RWS17s that I can buy from Frys.com. It’s my understanding that the RWS17s are almost identical to the WS12As, except the RWS17s don’t have the advanced soft-start and resume dim features (which I don’t need). It’s also my understanding that the soft-start feature causes the incompatibility with AHP.

Just for the heck of it, I had a short online chat with someone at X10.com. He indicated that all the new X-10 switches had the soft-start feature. I asked him when AHP would be updated to work with soft-start switches. His reply was that it already works with these switches. He clearly is oblivious to the many posts on this forum that indicate otherwise.

I would appreciate this group’s assessment of my plan to use RWS17 switches. If anyone has a better idea of how to solve my problem, please let me know. Thanks in advance for your help.

[Boiler]

Hello JCE1978,

Welcome to the forum.

Before you go too far down the replacement path, please make absolutely certain that the RWS17 switches do not include the soft start feature.  Most of the X10 switches (X10, X10Pro, and Retail) all come from the same plant in China.  The X10 and X10Pro units began appearing with the Soft start features back in 2007.  Given the amount of time that has passed, I find it unlikely that there are retail switches (RWS17) available without soft start.

An alternative to replacing your WS12a would be to replace your Signalinc repeater.  The Smarthome signalinc isn't just "poor" at repeating extended commands.  It flat does not understand them.  Smarthome Customer service is pretty good.  If you've purchased the repeater recently you have a decent chance of returning or exchanging it.

If you don't need the active repeating function, the passive Signalinc coupler (dryer plug) may be an option.  If you feel that you need the active repeater, post back - there are a number of options (including Jeff Volps XTB and XTB-IIR).

Boiler

[Brian H]

I believe the RWS17A is the retail part number for the WS12A.
I agree with Boiler. Verify if the ones you are looking at have Soft Start.

[jce1978]

Hello Boiler and Brian,

Boiler, thank you for the kind welcome. I’ve read a number of your posts. Although I’m far from an X-10 rookie, you have really helped me learn how to deal with more recent X-10 problems.

You both make a valid point regarding whether RWS17 switches have the soft-start feature. I e-mailed Frys.com regarding that question and have not received a response, so I’m going to take your advice and not buy those switches. I’d like to provide a little more background on my history with X-10 and determine where I should go from here, based on your recent posts.

In my previous house, I installed a passive coupler at the breaker box in the basement. This gave me 99% reliability with the “old” X-10 switches. Little did I know what a bag of worms awaited me with these bloody new soft-start switches. My new home was built by Toll Brothers, and for some stupid reason, they installed the breaker box (with a subpanel) on the outside of the house (probably to save $50). As a result, it’s difficult to install a coupler (active or passive) at the breaker box. That’s why I went with SmartHome’s recommendation to buy the SignaLinc dryer repeater/coupler. I was concerned that a passive coupler at the dryer might not be robust enough to reliably pass on X-10 signals. Of course, I didn’t know that this repeater doesn’t work with the @#$% soft-starts.

One more thing: With my current setup, I also installed 4 “old” LM465 lamp modules, and they all work flawlessly.

My new home is 3500 sq. ft., with 2 stories. With the above background in mind, I have a couple of questions. Do you think I need an active coupler (which would be placed at the dryer) or do you think a passive dryer coupler would be sufficient? (I assume that a passive coupler will be effective with soft-starts.) I’m familiar with Jeff Volp’s XTB and XTB-IIR products. I would love to install the XTB-IIR, but I would have significant installation challenges because of the location of my breaker box. Would you try adding a passive dryer coupler and an XTB, which can be plugged into any house outlet?

Thanks to your posts and other posts that I have read, I’m making some headway in solving my problem. Your continued input would be greatly appreciated.

BTW, how do you think X-10 is gaining new customers? All its switches are now soft-starts, and unless a user knows to name regular lamp and switch modules as LM14s, he/she would have a virtually dead system. I don’t understand how X-10’s head can stay in the sand about this critical issue. (Sorry; guess I just needed to vent.) 

I look forward to your expert opinions regarding my current situation.

Thanks,
jce

[dave w]

As a result, it’s difficult to install a coupler (active or passive) at the breaker box. That’s why I went with SmartHome’s recommendation to buy the SignaLinc dryer repeater/coupler. I was concerned that a passive coupler at the dryer might not be robust enough to reliably pass on X-10 signals. Of course, I didn’t know that this repeater doesn’t work with the @#$% soft-starts.

I would love to install the XTB-IIR, but I would have significant installation challenges because of the location of my breaker box. Would you try adding a passive dryer coupler and an XTB, which can be plugged into any house outlet?

Thanks,
jce

jce

First, don't wait too long for a response from Frys they probably have no way of knowing if their current stock of switches are soft start. X10 doesn't even know.

With that large of a home I would find a way to install the XTBIIR (keep reading) I don't think a passive coupler will do the job, but then I'm a big proponent of high output repeaters to blast through noise.

FWIW
I AM NOT RECOMMENDING THIS I'M ONLY TELLING YOU ABOUT IT.
Because I wanted to see (for diagnostic purposes) the five status LEDs on my ACT 234 repeater and my breaker panel was out in the garage, I installed the ACT repeater in the laundry room and wired it into the dryer cord connection block on back of the dryer. Because the dryer is on 50 amp breaker, I put in-line fuse holders with 5 amp fuses in the cord from the dryer connection block to the ACT repeater. I also put a in-line connector in the cord so I could disconnect the repeater from the dryer in the event the dry or the repeater needed service. I used a connector with two horizontal blades and round pin, so no one could accidentally plug a 120v gizmo into a 220v source.

Also FWIW I think you will like the Soft Start switches once you get a decent repeater.

[JeffVolp]

Here all the new houses have the main disconnect panel accessible outside, and a distribution panel more centrally located.  The outside panel usually also feeds heavy 240V loads.  This may be a building code issue so that the power to the house can be easily switched off without having to remove the utility meter.

With all the electrical loads we have in a home today, a 3500 sq.ft. home may be pushing it with your controller running "barefoot".  It can be done, but you have to be careful about isolating any signal suckers with X10 filters.

Regarding the XTB, that combined with a good passive coupler at the panel is certainly an option.  You might want to wait another month when an enhanced version that includes a repeater capability should become available.  It will be able to repeat the "doublet" extended codes produced by the CM15A.

Jeff

[Boiler]

Hello again JCE,

We have similar sized homes.  While I have successfully run my X10 system with only a passive coupler at times, it becomes a maintenance issue.  Periodically, problem devices will move or new devices will appear and break the system.  To be fair, I have a mixed Insteon/X10 system and the Insteon devices also absorb X10.

You have a number of options at your disposal:

1) You can program around the softstart switch problems using macro's.  The issue with these switches is that they will not activate when they receive a bright/dim command (as will the old units). The trick is to issue a simple "ON" command at the start of the macro. 

Macro A1 on (old unit)
A1 90%

This will not work with the new soft start as AHP will send a string of bright commands to achieve 90% level.  The softstart unit will not activate with the bright input.

Macro A1 on (softstart)
A1 On  (this on command will get around the no-response for dim/bright inputs - make sure that "Issue ON in place of Bright 100%" is checked under options.
A1 Bright 100% (Set the unit to 100% for a consistent starting point.  This gets around the "resume" feature).
Delay 1
A1 Bright (desired level) - With the unit now on and at 100% you can set your desired level.


2) Passive coupler and XTBR - This is actually what I am currently using.  I have a pre-production XTBR that Jeff Volp provided to assess interactions with my Insteon system.  I have the CM15a plugged directly into the XTBR digital input and the combination is installed near my panel and adjacent to my passive coupler.

Jeff worked with this repeater to insure that there were no complications between the Insteon/X10 communications.  I quite frankly can't say enough about this little repeater, or Jeff's attention to detail.  He managed to succeed where other manufacturers (Boosterlinc) have not.  The XTBR - passive coupler has been working flawlessly for some months now.

Whether on not this combination will work for your installation will depend on the location of the individual components.  The optimal placement for the XTBR and coupler is in close proximity and near the panel for best distribution throughout the home.  It doesn't sound as if you can achieve that.

This is probably the most flexible solution as it allows you to install the XTBR/Cm15a in more convenient locations.  As Jeff indicated, the new XTBR will be available in about a months time.  I would advise waiting.

3) XTB-II - This device needs access to both phases of your service.  If you are not using your dryer plug, you could install there.  If you are using the plug, Dave_W's install is a possibility.  Please heed Dave's disclaimer.  He has obviously given this a lot of thought, and implemented a "safe" solution.  As with the XTBR, it's optimal to install the CM15a in the XTB-II digital input.

The XTB-II is probably the ultimate X10 repeater.  If you are currently using the dryer plug and still wish to pursue this, I would encourage you to contact Jeff directly. 

There are other "in-between" options as well.  If you're leaning toward the XTBR/passive coupler solution, you could pick up a dryer install Signalinc passive coupler and evaluate your system for coverage.  The LM14a (extended code) interface should work well with this install.

That's probably enough food for though for now.  Let us know your preferences,
Boiler

[jce1978]

Macro A1 on (softstart)
A1 On  (this on command will get around the no-response for dim/bright inputs - make sure that "Issue ON in place of Bright 100%" is checked under options.
A1 Bright 100% (Set the unit to 100% for a consistent starting point.  This gets around the "resume" feature).
Delay 1
A1 Bright (desired level) - With the unit now on and at 100% you can set your desired level.

Hello all,

Thank you for your very thorough explanations and suggestions. I have a few more questions.

1. Boiler, I've used the above workaround macro that I picked up from one of your earlier posts. It does allow me to turn on lights with my current setup. However, I've not been successful in writing a similar macro to turn off these lights. Could you please post a workaround macro for an off command? Also, it's not clear to me when I should trigger these macros. My current ON macro triggers at the exact same time as the LM14A timer turns on and seems to work that way. Please clarify this for the on and off macros.

2. Jeff, I'm excited to hear that you will soon be introducing the XTBR. It sounds perfectly suited to my situation, where it is difficult to install the XTB-IIR. Should I occasionally check your Web site to determine when I can buy the XTBR?

After all your suggestions, I'm now planning to buy a passive SignaLinc dryer coupler and then buy Jeff's XTBR when it is released. I'll probably go ahead with the coupler purchase just to see how well it works on its own. Does anyone recommend a better passive dryer coupler than the SignaLinc unit?

Thanks again for helping me regain my X-10 sanity. 

jce

[JeffVolp]

The wire-in SignaLinc 4816H consists of a .1uF 400VDC capacitor in series with a small 18uH inductor, which forms a series-tuned circuit at just below 120KHz.  The inductor cancels out the capacitive reactance, so that is a better coupler than using just a .1uF capacitor alone.  I would expect their dryer coupler contains a similar coupling network.

Just one thing you should consider about the dryer coupler.  That will work fine as long as the run from the dryer to the distribution panel is relatively short - say 20 or 30 feet.  Here it would be around 100 feet (200 feet of signal run), so that wouldn't work well at all:

     X10 Transmitter ---> Centrally located "Main" panel <--->  Outside Disconnect Panel <----> Dryer

Regarding the XTBR, that will be added to the XTB ordering page after I confirm the first production units work as they should.  Those first ones will go out to the people who helped me with the beta test.

Jeff

[Brian H]

Yes my Smarthome Dryer Outlet coupler. Had the .1uf and 18uH choke in series across the Lines.
I changed one from 18uH to 15uH to get it closer to the Insteon 131.65 KHz.

[Boiler]

Hello all,

Thank you for your very thorough explanations and suggestions. I have a few more questions.

1. Boiler, I've used the above workaround macro that I picked up from one of your earlier posts. It does allow me to turn on lights with my current setup. However, I've not been successful in writing a similar macro to turn off these lights. Could you please post a workaround macro for an off command? Also, it's not clear to me when I should trigger these macros. My current ON macro triggers at the exact same time as the LM14A timer turns on and seems to work that way. Please clarify this for the on and off macros.

Hi jce,

Your softstart units should respond to a normal off command.  There shouldn't be any workarounds required.

For the macro/timer setup - You can set a timer on the macro itself.  Click on the little "clock" icon on the macro to set a timer.  When the timer executes, it will call the macro to turn your light on.

The macro itself can be at the same address as the module you are using.  Just make sure that you have the transceived housecode set to "off".

[jce1978]

Hi Boiler,

Thanks for your input. Using the suggestions from this forum, I'm slowly getting my soft-starts to work. I'm familiar with the macro's clock icon, which allows me to determine when the macro executes. I'm not sure I understand your comment about having the transceived housecode set to "off." Perhaps you mean that the macro trigger should be set to off?? The only place I can find transceived housecodes is by choosing Tools --> Hardware Configuration. In the Hardware Interface Configuration dialog box, the Transceived House Code(s) options are only None, Auto, and Specific. My software is currently set to Auto.

My current "problem child" is the sconce lights above my entertainment center. These lights respond to on and off commands only when I'm not using the entertainment center. Clearly the "noise" created by one or more components is the culprit. The center is a rather large piece of furniture, so getting to and placing a plug-in filter behind it is not an easy option. I'm hoping that Jeff Volp's XTBR will have sufficient power to "blast through" the noise. I'll keep you posted on my progress.

Thanks,
jce

[ggrote]

[snip]   I'm hoping that Jeff Volp's XTBR will have sufficient power to "blast through" the noise. I'll keep you posted on my progress.

Thanks,
jce

Yes!  My plans exactly!  Brute force solutions ... I love it!

I'm lining up an electrician to install a 220V outlet adjacent to my main panel in the garage, into which I will plug my XTB-IIR (which I am in the process of purchasing ... honest, Jeff!), and I am then hopeful that my WS467s will respond to "off" commands from my MS16s as well as "on" commands!

I have 3 open spots in my main panel, and the new outlet will only use two, so perhaps I'll have him add a circuit for a new house fan or something ... no sense leaving just one open spot, and a whole house fan ought to be a great test for the XTB!

Anyway, if you get there before me, be sure to let us know how it goes! 

[Redwoods]

JCE -- in case you are interested, I have at least 7 of the old-style (not soft start) RWS17 dimmers, brand new in blister packs.  If you still are looking for these, let me know here.  I bought them for a project some years back, and never used them. 
 -- Fred

[kenrad]

JCE1978, 

I had the same issues with the softstart that you are having and I currentlyy have multiple WS12A switches I almost went the route that you are and replaced them all.  But in doing my research I found that They work fine with AHP it is usually a phase issue or a noise issue.  I recently remover my XPCR repeater coupler and Put in the XPCP passive coupler at the main panel then I went with Jeff Vlop's XTRB and the XTBR-ANR (Currently in beta testing) and it was like magic.  It increases signal strength with the XTBR and the XTBR-ANR is a noise sucker similar to a filter that limited much of the line noise on my system and it corrected the issues.  After Jeffs products I have never had a more reliable system.  I currently run 12 WS12A's in my setup as well as multiple other devices and they run flawlessly.  This is in a 5000 sq foot house that was bulit in 1809 so jeffs products will work anywhere.  it even reliably sends signals to my garage that is 35 feet from my house and has multiple wall wart style charges and power supplies plugged in as well as an air compressor that introduces tons of line noise.  before jeffs products is the air compressor was on there was not x10 signal going anywhere but now it doesn't matter. 

I would look at Jeff Vlop's stuff and run from there

 >!KEnrad