Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic: Hot water recirculation system on both timer and manual triggers  (Read 12134 times)

Shadysprings

  • Newbie
  • Helpful Post Rating: 0
  • Posts: 7
Hot water recirculation system on both timer and manual triggers
« on: December 16, 2009, 11:04:07 PM »

I'm new to X10 and am hoping someone can help me configure a system.
I have a hot water recirculation pump in the garage.  I'd like to control it by using two parallel triggers.
1> straight timer.  a simple on/off timers that I can set and forget. 
2> in parallel, have five locations in the house using a manual switch/button that I can turn on pump manually for say 2 minutes, then back off again automatically.

Don't want motion detector, just a plain ole button or ??

I read through several threads here and some are real close but if someone can give me the setup directly, that would be great!

Thanks
Logged

Mellowmark

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Helpful Post Rating: 6
  • Posts: 195
  • M M Electric
Re: Hot water recirculation system on both timer and manual triggers
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2009, 06:18:02 PM »

Sounds like a good job for smart macros do you have or plan to purchase a CM15 controller.  With one you could most likely set the timer you ask then change the light switches with something two way and control the pump and the lights remote. 


There are allot of options not to mention the unlimited power of the controller ounce you get hooked. 8)
Logged
M M ElectricMan

Shadysprings

  • Newbie
  • Helpful Post Rating: 0
  • Posts: 7
Re: Hot water recirculation system on both timer and manual triggers
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2009, 08:36:09 PM »

Sounds like a good job for smart macros do you have or plan to purchase a CM15 controller.  With one you could most likely set the timer you ask then change the light switches with something two way and control the pump and the lights remote. 


There are allot of options not to mention the unlimited power of the controller ounce you get hooked. 8)
OK, I'll go look at Smart Marcos and the CM15.  Speaking of getting hooked, I have a whole list of stuff i want to do.  One of them is to remotely close and open my garage door.  Wonder if that's possible?  but first I need to get this hot water pump thing done.  Thanks
Logged

Mellowmark

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Helpful Post Rating: 6
  • Posts: 195
  • M M Electric
Re: Hot water recirculation system on both timer and manual triggers
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2009, 09:02:29 PM »

If you have a list.  Then you want a controller like the CM15.  Do some research so you have some idea what you are getting into.  You may be pleasantly supprised at what you can do.  You have allot of options so put you instant gratification away for a chance to give yourself time to make a decision that will work for you the first time around. X10 does take some Patience and tweaking for satisfaction.
Logged
M M ElectricMan

Shadysprings

  • Newbie
  • Helpful Post Rating: 0
  • Posts: 7
Re: Hot water recirculation system on both timer and manual triggers
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2009, 09:37:41 PM »

If you have a list.  Then you want a controller like the CM15.  Do some research so you have some idea what you are getting into.  You may be pleasantly supprised at what you can do.  You have allot of options so put you instant gratification away for a chance to give yourself time to make a decision that will work for you the first time around. X10 does take some Patience and tweaking for satisfaction.
I'm having trouble finding cm15 info on the website.  any pointers or url's you can suggest?  I assume it's a x10.com product?
Logged

Mellowmark

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Helpful Post Rating: 6
  • Posts: 195
  • M M Electric
Re: Hot water recirculation system on both timer and manual triggers
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2009, 09:59:58 PM »

This is the deal from right from x10.

http://www.x10.com/promotions/cm15a_ed_freesuite_onalert_ss13a_0423.html
 
Check it out and resarch what it can do on the forum.. 

Spend some time checking out some of the tutorials and other stuff here.

scroll down and check out the list of software and controller for 50 bucks.. 
go to the home page and check out the other devices that this will controll for a full feature system.

you can automate just about anything.
Logged
M M ElectricMan

cantbreak80

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Helpful Post Rating: 2
  • Posts: 24
Re: Hot water recirculation system on both timer and manual triggers
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2009, 10:02:44 PM »

Basic plug-in system
1 MT10A-HA Mini Timer Kit = $39.99 includes appliance module & 2 lamp modules
4 MC460 plug-in mini controllers @ $12.99 each = $51.96

Plug the timer into an outlet…set the timer as desired.
Plug the mini controllers into outlets
Plug appliance module into outlet
Plug circulating pump into appliance module
Set all mini controllers and appliance modules to the same house code

Each mini controller will manually control the appliance module
The timer will automatically control the appliance module 
Total cost $91.95

No computer required…No CM15A…no macros…

But, if you want to do some additional HA just get the http://www.x10.com/promotions/home_automation_n.html
AHP package with the Smart Macros add-in.  Now you can do some really cool stuff and for not much more money.
The wireless Slimline switches and Slim Fire remotes don’t require an outlet and give you additional functionality.
Logged

Shadysprings

  • Newbie
  • Helpful Post Rating: 0
  • Posts: 7
Re: Hot water recirculation system on both timer and manual triggers
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2009, 10:11:37 PM »

Basic plug-in system
1 MT10A-HA Mini Timer Kit = $39.99 includes appliance module & 2 lamp modules
4 MC460 plug-in mini controllers @ $12.99 each = $51.96

Plug the timer into an outlet…set the timer as desired.
Plug the mini controllers into outlets
Plug appliance module into outlet
Plug circulating pump into appliance module
Set all mini controllers and appliance modules to the same house code

Each mini controller will manually control the appliance module
The timer will automatically control the appliance module 
Total cost $91.95

No computer required…No CM15A…no macros…

But, if you want to do some additional HA just get the http://www.x10.com/promotions/home_automation_n.html
AHP package with the Smart Macros add-in.  Now you can do some really cool stuff and for not much more money.
The wireless Slimline switches and Slim Fire remotes don’t require an outlet and give you additional functionality.

Ok, this is great info.  For the water recirc, I'll try this because I want to set and forget.  No computer or macros sounds good.  For the other stuff, the CM15 sounds fun and will take some time to figure out.  I can tell this will be consuming many hours this holiday season....  Thanks for the help.
Logged

dave w

  • Community Organizer
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Helpful Post Rating: 139
  • Posts: 6116
Re: Hot water recirculation system on both timer and manual triggers
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2009, 09:10:04 AM »

Shady,
As you jump into the muck with both feet here is some information to keep in back of mind.

The main way X10 gets commands to the remote modules is low speed digital codes sent over the homes power lines (Power Line Carrier [control] or also known as Power Line Control ) and this creates a few dependability issues. Rather than repeat information that has already been posted dozens of times you might go here:

http://jvde.us/xtb_index.htm

and read the “X10 Troubleshooting” section.

The other problem is the modules can accidentally turn ON. This is fairly infrequent but it happens…my experience has been after a utility power interruption. The modules do not like “brown-ups” (when the power comes back on slowly). So you may want to think twice about allowing X10 to OPEN your garage door. Years ago I had the home control system close my garage door if I forgot (hey I’m an old guy…cut some slack) and by default could open my garage door. After coming home to an open garage door several times, I re-wired the circuit so X10 could only close the door, not open it. It is also a good idea as you automate things to ask your self : “what is the worse thing that could happen if this came on when no one is home”. Similarly: "what is the worse thing that could happen if it does not turn off..."

I have blathered enough, but you’re gonna love this stuff if you are careful about your expectations. Although X10 website implies home automation is essentially "Plug -N- Play" in reality it is not.

Good luck!
« Last Edit: December 18, 2009, 09:21:33 AM by dave w »
Logged
"This aftershave makes me look fat"

Shadysprings

  • Newbie
  • Helpful Post Rating: 0
  • Posts: 7
Re: Hot water recirculation system on both timer and manual triggers
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2009, 11:48:24 AM »

Shady,
As you jump into the muck with both feet here is some information to keep in back of mind.

The main way X10 gets commands to the remote modules is low speed digital codes sent over the homes power lines (Power Line Carrier [control] or also known as Power Line Control ) and this creates a few dependability issues. Rather than repeat information that has already been posted dozens of times you might go here:

http://jvde.us/xtb_index.htm

and read the “X10 Troubleshooting” section.

The other problem is the modules can accidentally turn ON. This is fairly infrequent but it happens…my experience has been after a utility power interruption. The modules do not like “brown-ups” (when the power comes back on slowly). So you may want to think twice about allowing X10 to OPEN your garage door. Years ago I had the home control system close my garage door if I forgot (hey I’m an old guy…cut some slack) and by default could open my garage door. After coming home to an open garage door several times, I re-wired the circuit so X10 could only close the door, not open it. It is also a good idea as you automate things to ask your self : “what is the worse thing that could happen if this came on when no one is home”. Similarly: "what is the worse thing that could happen if it does not turn off..."

I have blathered enough, but you’re gonna love this stuff if you are careful about your expectations. Although X10 website implies home automation is essentially "Plug -N- Play" in reality it is not.

Good luck!

Thanks Dave!  I appreciate the good advise.  Just out of curiosity, how did you know your garage door was open when you were away?
Logged

dave w

  • Community Organizer
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Helpful Post Rating: 139
  • Posts: 6116
Re: Hot water recirculation system on both timer and manual triggers
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2009, 12:20:51 PM »

I came home from work to an open garage on days I knew I had closed it. This envoked the "Oh cr*p!!" response as I approached the house.
Logged
"This aftershave makes me look fat"

Shadysprings

  • Newbie
  • Helpful Post Rating: 0
  • Posts: 7
Re: Hot water recirculation system on both timer and manual triggers
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2009, 12:30:11 PM »

I came home from work to an open garage on days I knew I had closed it. This envoked the "Oh cr*p!!" response as I approached the house.
Haha, I know what you're saying. Well, as soon as I get hot water, I'll go think about this one.
Logged

GDubs

  • Newbie
  • Helpful Post Rating: 0
  • Posts: 2
Re: Hot water recirculation system on both timer and manual triggers
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2009, 04:36:50 PM »

Hi,
This thread moved on pretty quickly and I don't think part 2 of Shady's original question was addressed:

2> in parallel, have five locations in the house using a manual switch/button that I can turn on pump manually for say 2 minutes, then back off again automatically.

This is the part I'm interested in.  I have a recirc pump for my tankless water heater and would like to turn it on from each bathroom and, most importantly, have it shut off automatically after two minutes.  I don't want it controlled by a clock set for a certain time of day; just shut off two minutes after it's turned on. 

Is there a simple way to do that?

Thanks,
Gary
Logged

JeffVolp

  • Community Organizer
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Helpful Post Rating: 122
  • Posts: 2286
    • XTB Home Page
Re: Hot water recirculation system on both timer and manual triggers
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2009, 05:48:31 PM »

Lets back up a bit and think about why we use these hot water recirculation systems.  There are two main advantages.  One is that we avoid having to waste water while waiting for it to warm up.  Another is that we can turn on the hot water tap and have warm water instantly.

In our house it takes about 70 seconds for the Grundfos pump to refresh hot water in the loop.  If we went to the on-demand type of system, that would mean waiting up to a minute every time we wanted hot water.  Since we use water randomly throughout the day, I chose to keep the pipes always warm, and heavily insulate them to minimize loss.

The Ocelot runs the pump for 70 seconds every 15 minutes.  I could stretch that out, but now there is little difference in temperature regardless of where it is in that 15 minute period.  As a result, the shower temperature usually does not have to be readjusted as the water flows.  The cycle only runs from dawn to 11:15PM, so there is some additional savings by not running the pump at night.

The advantage of this type of scheme is instant hot water throughout the day, and no wasted water while waiting for it to warm up.  Because the pump runs at only a 8% duty cycle, this is much more efficient than the basic 24 hour timer that Grundfos normally uses.

Jeff
Logged
X-10 automation since the BSR days

GDubs

  • Newbie
  • Helpful Post Rating: 0
  • Posts: 2
Re: Hot water recirculation system on both timer and manual triggers
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2009, 07:54:25 PM »

Well, here's the thing: I have a tankless water heater.  I used to have a Chillipepper on-demand pump that had a built-in shut-off, so I could trigger it with a momentary switch.  I have X10 Big Red Buttons in both bathrooms and the kitchen.  When the third Chilipepper died, I bought a Laing Autocirc with timer, and I'm running it as you suggest, cycling on and off every 15 minutes or so, whenever the temperature at the kitchen sink (furthest from the heater) drops 10 degrees.  The timer just shuts it off at night; cycle time is controlled by temperature.

All is well and good if you want to wash your hands at any sink, and you get nice warm water any time.   But if you take a shower during the time the pump is cycled off, the heater comes on and shoots the tankless signature "cold water sandwich" through the line.  This is the blast of cold water that comes through the heater while it's getting turned on and coming up to temperature, and it arrives at the shower just about the time you start to enjoy that warm water that was sitting in the line thanks to the pump.

By using the pump strictly as an on-demand pump, the whole system starts off cold, and yes, it takes a minute or so to get the warm to you, but when it gets there, you're not in for the unpleasant surprise of the CW sandwich.

So it's a tradeoff. All the insulation in the world is not going to eliminate the sandwich.  In fact, it will make it worse, because having hot water in the line makes the sandwich of cold that much more dramatic.  We end up washing our hands in cold water, or pushing the button and waiting a minute for hot to arrive.  At least all that water's not going down the drain, and that's the reason we installed the pump.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2
 

X10.com | About X10 | X10 Security Systems | Cameras| Package Deals
© Copyright 2014-2016 X10.com All rights reserved.