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[psi_teck]

Hi,
I'd like to add a dimmer switch that can be controlled with my universal remote. The switch controls 6 incandescent bulbs, 75 watts each. I do not have neutral wires in the switch box.

My understanding is that I cannot use Insteon switches because they require the neutral wire, so this leaves me with an X10 solution of something like the ws12a switch and the ir543 controller.

My concern is that 450 watts is pushing the 500 watt rating of the ws12a and so I might have trouble turning off the lights when they are at full intensity and the switch might buzz when dimmed down.

Are my concerns valid?
If so, are there any switches on the market rated >500 watts for my situation, or will I have to use lesser wattage bulbs (and by how much would you recommend)?

If I managed to run another wire (as the neutral) between the switch box and the outlet box where the ir543 is plugged, could I then use the higher rated Insteon switches? Or would I have to use the IRLinc receiver in place of the ir543 in that case? I'm a bit confused about what X10-ready means.

Any other options?

[Brian H]

X10 ready in Insteon Modules. Means they ship with no X10 address in them, but you can program an X10 Primary Address in them. With an X10 controller or any X10 sender that can put the signal on the power line.
Most times you use the set button to turn on Linking and then send the X10 signal to the House and Unit code you desire.

Some an also have X10 scenes added to them but that requires a way to send house code only programming sequences on the power line to the Primary X10 Address already programed in to it.

Would the switches be in a metal electrical box or in an electrical box with other switches? Insteons when in a electrical box with another dimmer next to it. Have to be derated. Normal switch or a relay type does not require the derating. The 1000 Watt Insteon has some large fins on it and if it doesn't fit the box. They can be broken off individually, but then you end up with another derating situation.

Added thoughts: I think dave w has a good idea. Try an X10 WS12 decorator or WS467 and see how it works. Incadescent bulbs should not have a turn off problem. Also running a neutral if not on the same branch circuit the lights are on. Could give you some strange things if the two branch circuits have different load currents.

[dave w]

My concern is that 450 watts is pushing the 500 watt rating of the ws12a and so I might have trouble turning off the lights when they are at full intensity and the switch might buzz when dimmed down.

Are my concerns valid?

Maybe

Brian H is an Insteon expert and Insteon has a couple of 1000 watt models. However I think you could get by with X10, 2-wire switches (WS 467 or WS 12) especially if you mount it in a metal box and use a metal wall plate. That should provide enough heat sinking that the dimmers will be happy. Humming is a probability simply because of the heavy load, but refusal to turn OFF should not be a factor if the switches internal choke is good. Failure to turn OFF is more a factor of external electrical noise rather than the triac noise generated in the switch (he says confidently, assuming X10 has not tried to save another penny by going to a lighter choke).

Sorry...I digress. My suggestion would be to first try one WS 467 and see what happens, rather than trying to run a neutral (unless laying in a neutral is easy). If it works then you might consider a metal wall box, if it is not metal now, or at minimum a metal wall plate. FWIW

[psi_teck]

X10 ready in Insteon Modules. Means they ship with no X10 address in them, but you can program an X10 Primary Address in them. With an X10 controller or any X10 sender that can put the signal on the power line.
Most times you use the set button to turn on Linking and then send the X10 signal to the House and Unit code you desire.

By "power line" do you specifically mean the "hot" line? From what I've read, the Insteon switches MUST have a neutral wired to it to work. But from the steps outlined above it sounds like the X10 controller only puts out the programming commands on the hot wire and the Insteon deals with it. When the Insteon switch is controlled by an X10 device like the ir543, when does the neutral line get used? There's my confusion, because I wouldn't think it would use it at all, being that the ir543 wasn't designed to put out signals on the neutral.

Would the switches be in a metal electrical box or in an electrical box with other switches? Insteons when in a electrical box with another dimmer next to it. Have to be derated. Normal switch or a relay type does not require the derating.

I have a plastic 3-gang box with a plastic cover and all 3 slots house switches. The middle one is a normal switch and the other two are dimmers. I'm only interested in changing one of the dimmers to be remote controllable.

Brian H is an Insteon expert and Insteon has a couple of 1000 watt models. However I think you could get by with X10, 2-wire switches (WS 467 or WS 12) especially if you mount it in a metal box and use a metal wall plate. That should provide enough heat sinking that the dimmers will be happy. Humming is a probability simply because of the heavy load, but refusal to turn OFF should not be a factor if the switches internal choke is good. Failure to turn OFF is more a factor of external electrical noise rather than the triac noise generated in the switch (he says confidently, assuming X10 has not tried to save another penny by going to a lighter choke).

I thought I read somewhere on this forum that resistance in the line increases as the filament gets hotter, and that's one of the reasons OFF commands do not get through when ON commands do.

Sorry...I digress. My suggestion would be to first try one WS 467 and see what happens, rather than trying to run a neutral (unless laying in a neutral is easy). If it works then you might consider a metal wall box, if it is not metal now, or at minimum a metal wall plate. FWIW

Yeah, the metal would help dissipate the heat... Laying in a neutral would not be easy, which is why I want to be clear whether I'd need to, if X10 controllers are used.

[Brian H]

Yes Insteon needs a neutral. It is used to power the Insteon electronics. It uses both Line and Neutral for power and has a Load output that goes to the lights. There are users guides available that show how they are connected and used.
The X10 wiki has lots of good data on their modules also.
http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Main_Page

The two wire X10 wall switches actually steal a small amount of power through the load bulbs. So technically they are slightly less bright when an X10 two wire switch is used. So NO a neutral is not needed with a two wire X10 Switch {WS12A WS467}.
The non dimming WS13A with a relay in it for CFL bulbs, inductive lighting and low voltage lighting does need a neutral.

Controller sending a command on the power line referred to any X10 sender plugged into a wall outlet or a hard wired controller to AC power. I believe the X10 and Insteon signals are on the line side of the circuit but neutral is still needed for power on Insteon Switches.

I have used a few different controllers to do mine. X10 RR501 transceiver and a HR12 Palm Pad remote. X10 Maxi-Controller. Smarthome Manager Essentials through their older X10 1132CU interface.

I have not seen much data on the hot resistance of a bulb influencing an X10 signal.
With your six 75 watt bulbs. The total resistance would be lower than one as they are in parallel with each other.

Your thoughts on trying a WS467 or WS12A sounds good as it is much easier to try and much less expensive than the Insteon or the Icon switch lines.

[dave w]

I thought I read somewhere on this forum that resistance in the line increases as the filament gets hotter, and that's one of the reasons OFF commands do not get through when ON commands do.

Filament resistance does rise slightly when the nichrome wire is hot, but that should not prevent the OFF command from getting to the switch electronics. Usually that symptom is caused by other factors like noise. There is instances of the internal triac making so much noise the OFF command can't make it through but that is an internal problem with the switch which X10 should correct as long as you are under the specs  (someday allow me to tell you about the foibles of controlling 5000 watt studio lights with Lamp Modules and how important the internal choke is    )

[psi_teck]

Ah that clears it up about how the neutral wire is used and I feel reassured about my "OFF" worries. After googling some more, I'm also more clear on what a neutral wire is (I was confusing it with the third wire on a 3-wire cable). Turns out I have a neutral in my switch box afterall.

I think I'll take your advice and give an X10 switch a try first. It's certainly a lot cheaper!

Thanks to you both for answering my questions.
regards,
psi_teck

[psi_teck]

Just wanted to follow up on this. I'm pleasantly surprised how well this works, considering my environment. I bought a WS12A switch module and an ir543 controller and also a ur47a remote control (ebay item which hasn't arrived yet). The ur47a is designed with special buttons on it to control a number of X10 devices. I am going to have my URC RF20 remote learn from the ur47a because my experience with pre-programmed codes has been spotty. In the mean time I did put in a pre-programmed X10 code that I found in the RF20 manual. This gets the dimming function to work (vol+ and vol-) but sure enough the channel buttons, which are supposed to turn the lights on and off, don't do anything. Neither do the number buttons, which I'd need to type the module number. There is another X10 code in the manual that I haven't tried yet - maybe it will work better.

The first thing I noticed, and this has been reported by others, is that the ir543 led light gets stuck on when it's in a direct line with the TV screen. When I moved it out of a direct line (but still in the same room), it goes off but the remote control range is severely limited to about 2 ft. With the TV off, the remote works fine even 20 ft away.

My plan, which I didn't have high hopes for, was to put the ir543 in an A/V closet, the door of which faces the TV. The door is louvered, but luckily it blocks the TV noise that bothers the ir543. The ir543 works in the closet because the RF20 sends RF to an RF/IR converter in the closet and a blaster retransmits it. The circuit in the closet has an outlet with two power strips, into which is plugged a computer, cable box, avr, dvd player, cable modem, router, switch, access point, IR blaster, and maybe some other junk I can't remember, along with the ir543. This circuit is on a different one than the lights I am trying to dim and, as far as I understand these things, the circuits are on different phases as well.

Despite having no filters, repeaters, or couplers, the thing works really well (at least so far, knock wood).

Some other observations:
Prying off the toggle plate was a bit nerve racking. It didn't pop off easily and I was afraid I would end up cracking the plastic somewhere. After all that I ended up leaving it at A1.
There is some buzzing at the switch and it's loudest at about 50% of dim. Although it's noisier than the one I replaced, it's not as loud as I feared. I'm not crazy about the mushy feel and having to re-press the switch plate to reverse the dimming direction, but I suspect I'll get used to it. I haven't got a proper switch plate cover yet but the heat coming from it does not seem any worse than the dimmer it replaced.

[dave w]

I haven't got a proper switch plate cover yet but the heat coming from it does not seem any worse than the dimmer it replaced.

If, after leaving your light on an hour or so, the front metal plate of the switch is cool enough to hold your finger on, you probably do not need a metal switch plate for additional heat sinking.