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[tom j]

Hi guys posted here a while back concerning a problem with noise that I thought was coming from my refrigerator, well I'm still convinced that the freg is possibly the tipping point but the strange thing is that the interference I'm experiencing only effects my signal transmission at night and not during the day. There's a very large Church that I can see out my backyard. I am know convinced that at night with all their lighting in the parking lot and the activity over there that it's the interference might be emanating.

Seems like I read some time ago that there was an x10 devise to prevent this type of interference from entering your home. Can't seem to find anything on the x10 sight so I was hoping someone might be able to help with possible recommendations. Going be away from the house at night for a while for a project never worried about it during the day but because I will be away for a few months in the evening I want to see if I can get this under control. So is there anythng that you guys could recommend that can block outside interference from entering your residence. Thanks hoping there's a solution out there. Thanks again for all the help!!


Tom j.

[dave w]

Hi guys posted here a while back concerning a problem with noise that I thought was coming from my refrigerator, well I'm still convinced that the freg is possibly the tipping point but the strange thing is that the interference I'm experiencing only effects my signal transmission at night and not during the day. There's a very large Church that I can see out my backyard. I am know convinced that at night with all their lighting in the parking lot and the activity over there that it's the interference might be emanating.

For noise to enter your home through the powerlines, the source would have to be on the same power transformer as your home.

Look closer to home, like a CFL bulb going bad and now making noise.

However the gizmo your are thinking about is likely this:

http://www.smarthome.com/4851/Whole-House-Blocking-Coupler-6284/p.aspx
 or this
http://www.smarthome.com/4851X/X10-Pro-Whole-House-Blocking-Coupler-PZZ01/p.aspx

[tom j]

Hi guys posted here a while back concerning a problem with noise that I thought was coming from my refrigerator, well I'm still convinced that the freg is possibly the tipping point but the strange thing is that the interference I'm experiencing only effects my signal transmission at night and not during the day. There's a very large Church that I can see out my backyard. I am know convinced that at night with all their lighting in the parking lot and the activity over there that it's the interference might be emanating.

For noise to enter your home through the powerlines, the source would have to be on the same power transformer as your home.

Look closer to home, like a CFL bulb going bad and now making noise.

However the gizmo your are thinking about is likely this:

http://www.smarthome.com/4851/Whole-House-Blocking-Coupler-6284/p.aspx
 or this
http://www.smarthome.com/4851X/X10-Pro-Whole-House-Blocking-Coupler-PZZ01/p.aspx

Say thanks you know we actually might share one transformer I'll take a look thing I don't understand is why only at night can't think of anything I'm running at night that I'm not during the daytime, THANKS for your suggestion! Great idea  because I was well basically   


Tom j

[dave w]

I don't understand is why only at night,  can't think of anything I'm running at night that I'm not during the daytime,

u-h-h, lights maybe?

CFL and LED bulbs can both be noise makers, TVs, cell phone chargers. Surley you have electrical stuff that is only on a night?

It could be from the church if you share a pole transformer, but that seems pretty unlikely. IF interference from the church is your problem, the whole house blocking coupler should reduce the noise. But I would suspect something in the house first.

[Brian H]

I have an Earth LED Evolux S 13 watt LED bulb. It makes so much power line noise it maxes out my XTBM's noise reading at .99 volts and sometimes can cause my XTB-IIR repeater to flash its LED when it thinks it detected a one bit.
So devices only on after dark could be a contributing factor in the night problem.

If you are sharing a transformer with the church. There could be a chance they have some lights that could be making noise.

[tom j]

I don't understand is why only at night,  can't think of anything I'm running at night that I'm not during the daytime,

u-h-h, lights maybe?

CFL and LED bulbs can both be noise makers, TVs, cell phone chargers. Surley you have electrical stuff that is only on a night?

It could be from the church if you share a pole transformer, but that seems pretty unlikely. IF interference from the church is your problem, the whole house blocking coupler should reduce the noise. But I would suspect something in the house first.

You know you're right I was thinking and I do have two CFL's didn't know these things were that noisy, thanks for all the suggestions. Whats happens is sometimes my All Lights ON All Lights Off kind of get out of sequence. Everything else works fine I mean my regulars x10 transmissions like turning a light on or off, this is really strange that it ONLY occurs at night and ONLY with that one kind of transmission.

Tom j.

[dave w]

You know you're right I was thinking and I do have two CFL's didn't know these things were that noisy, that's for all the suggestions. Whats happens is sometimes my All Lights ON All Lights Off kind of get out of sequence. Everything else works fine I mean my regulars x10 transmissions like turning a light on or off, this is really strange that it ONLY occurs at night and ONLY with that one kind of transmission.

Tom j.

Tom, You might try getting away from using "All Lights On" and "All Units Off" as a REGULAR method of controlling lights in your macros. Instead create macro that turns each desired light ON individually and OFF individually.

The X10 A.L.On command and A.U.Off commands are the shortest X10 commands since they do not require the transmissions of Unit Codes. Bit pattern wise, the  A.L On is "0001" and A.U.Off is "0000", In X10 protocol a 0 (zero) is an absence of the X10 burst on the AC sine wave. I wonder if the simpler code sequence may make it more susceptible to interference. My thought is (and I'm open to correction) if a noise pulse occurred during the actual A.U.Off command of four sine waves of no X10 modulation it would corrupt the command resulting in the lights remaining on.

Uncle Phils tutorial explains better.
http://www.hometoys.com/htinews/feb99/articles/kingery/kingery13.htm

If my feeble mind remembers I will ask Phil about this possibility of A.L.On and A.U.Off commands being more easily corrupted. Or perhaps Jeff could weigh in. 

Maybe reserve the A.L On and A.U.Off commands for security only and transmit them multiple times(?). This is one of those For What It's Worth suggestions, and it may be worth nothing.

Good luck
 

[JeffVolp]

The X10 A.L.On command and A.U.Off commands are the shortest X10 commands since they do not require the transmissions of Unit Codes. Bit pattern wise, the  A.L On is "0001" and A.U.Off is "0000", In X10 protocol a 0 (zero) is an absence of the X10 burst on the AC sine wave. I wonder if the simpler code sequence may make it more susceptible to interference. My thought is (and I'm open to correction) if a noise pulse occurred during the actual A.U.Off command of four sine waves of no X10 modulation it would corrupt the command resulting in the lights remaining on.

It is a little more complex than that.  X10 data is sent out as Manchester bit pairs.  0000 is sent out as 01010101, and 0001 as 01010110.  This may make it seem very difficult for noise to create one of these patterns.  However, in my testing I have seen noise can be different on positive versus negative half cycles.

If the noise level is near the detection threshold of a receiving module, it is possible for that module to detect noise as a string of zeros or ones.  The only complication is the start pattern, which is 1110.  Again, if the noise is very near the detection threshold, if just one of those negative half cycles is detected as a “1”, then the remainder of the pattern can be decoded.

The housecodes most easily emulated by noise are:  M (0000) & J (1111).  The most susceptible unit and command codes are 13 (00000) and Status Request (11111).  Codes that deviate from the regular pattern by only one bit would be the next most susceptible.  Codes that have a lot of bit flips are the hardest for noise to emulate.

To expand on this, the noise that emulated actual X10 data patterns was created by a set of several CFL bulbs.  The noise sums together, and creates a beat pattern with peaks and valleys depending on the frequency difference in the noise produced by the internal switching converters.

Because the amplitude of the noise peaks and valleys can be significantly different, this does not rely on being near the detection threshold.  And, as the beat frequency varies, there can be random data patterns generated.

This is why it is important for us to block noise near the X10 carrier frequency from reaching the powerline.

Jeff

[dave w]

Thanks Jeff, I didn't figure it could be as simple as my speculation which is why I "danced" a lot. But it is interesting that Tom seems to be having more problems with his "ALL" commands. (Tom's third post).

[Puck]

Just updated the typo in the OP topic name. Added the "i" to "Nose" for better search hits. 

[tom j]

You know you're right I was thinking and I do have two CFL's didn't know these things were that noisy, that's for all the suggestions. Whats happens is sometimes my All Lights ON All Lights Off kind of get out of sequence. Everything else works fine I mean my regulars x10 transmissions like turning a light on or off, this is really strange that it ONLY occurs at night and ONLY with that one kind of transmission.

Tom j.

Tom, You might try getting away from using "All Lights On" and "All Units Off" as a REGULAR method of controlling lights in your macros. Instead create macro that turns each desired light ON individually and OFF individually.

The X10 A.L.On command and A.U.Off commands are the shortest X10 commands since they do not require the transmissions of Unit Codes. Bit pattern wise, the  A.L On is "0001" and A.U.Off is "0000", In X10 protocol a 0 (zero) is an absence of the X10 burst on the AC sine wave. I wonder if the simpler code sequence may make it more susceptible to interference. My thought is (and I'm open to correction) if a noise pulse occurred during the actual A.U.Off command of four sine waves of no X10 modulation it would corrupt the command resulting in the lights remaining on.

Uncle Phils tutorial explains better.
http://www.hometoys.com/htinews/feb99/articles/kingery/kingery13.htm

If my feeble mind remembers I will ask Phil about this possibility of A.L.On and A.U.Off commands being more easily corrupted. Or perhaps Jeff could weigh in. 

Maybe reserve the A.L On and A.U.Off commands for security only and transmit them multiple times(?). This is one of those For What It's Worth suggestions, and it may be worth nothing.

Good luck
 

Hi I should have clarified this is when my Alarm goes off, you know how they blink on and off well if the alarm goes off at night they sometimes seem like they get out of sink, thinking those cfl's  might have something to do with this now. I tuned them all off and set the alarm off with the Frig running and everything seems to work. But like I said this doesn't happen all the time so I'll have to try this numerous times before I can say problem solved. Thanks!!!

Tom j.

[dave w]

Hi I should have clarified this is when my Alarm goes off, you know how they blink on and off well if the alarm goes off at night they sometimes seem like they get out of sink,

(long blather...FWIW)
Tom,
Do you have a mix of the old "instant on" switches and the newer "soft start" switches? If so, I could see the ON-OFF sequence of the lights getting out of sync because of the delays in the Soft Start units. I believe X10 has since fixed this by changing the switch firmware again, but not sure, maybe another forum "old geezer" has better info. 

The CFL troubleshooting may be the answer to some units simply not responding. If you have a large system you might consider JV Engineering's XTBM signal/noise meter. I loaned mine to a friend and long time X10 user, in Florida who moved in to a new home and had serious "nothing works at night" problems and could not locate the problem.

After an hour of using the XTBM, he nailed it to a fluorescent ceiling fixture in the kitchen. He had not considered the old 4 foot, 40watt, fluorescent tube fixture a possible noise source to X10, and generally they are not. Perhaps this one has a solid state ballast instead of the old magnetic style. But my point is sometimes noise sources are so "outside of the box" that some X10 trouble shooting equipment is needed.

BTW a simple, cheap, battery powered AM radio tuned to the low end of the dial (550 - 650KHz) can sometimes help you find troublesome electrical noise.  Sweep it around the home room by room, holding near outlets, appliances, wall warts, etc. A loud buzz will indicate a noise source BUT THE NOISE MAY NOT BE A PROBLEM FOR X10 transmissions (emphasis on may not). Temporarily disconnect the noise source and see if X10 starts to work again. If it does, you have identified a possible problem area for filtering. Noise tend to be cumulative so not everything needs filtering. Also a "blow torch" repeater will many times solve noise problems without the need for additional filtering.

Credit to Charles Sullivan and "Uncle Phil" Kingery for the AM radio troubleshooting hint.

[Brian H]

The older Soft Start LM465s also didn't flash correctly with a Security Console. They faded on and off instead of flashing.
The latest ones seem to act differently than the older soft start ones.  Though I have never tested them with a security console, just some direct commands through a PC based controller.