Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[hardya]

I have read a few sections from a number of X10 technical documents, but I am trying to find a guide to the range (ie distance in meters or feet) of X10 technology, but though this is often mentioned in technical documentation for other PLC technologies I can see nothing for X10 in the X10 documentation.

Just to make a couple fo things clear.

1.  I realise that range in practice can be affected by any number of things, but normally there is a way of specifying the maximum range based on the technology in an unhindered environment.

2.  This is a theoretical exercise, I am not looking solve a particular problem or know whether X10 is suitable for a particular case (though I may do in the future), I am just looking for numbers, and a reference either in X10 documentation of perhaps in other formal studies or surveys.

If any one has any suggestions I would be very grateful.

If a there is a better  forum for this,  please repost.


From an x10 newbie.

[dave w]

My $0.02

X10 uses combinations of PLC and RF for appliance/light control remote control.

In an "unhindered environment" (which in reality does not exist) and with proper phase coupling the PLC signal will, in theory, propagate through all electrical branches in an average sized home and will make it to the utility pole transformer. At least that's the way everything worked back in the 1980's.

Today however that ideal environment does not exist. So much electronics in the home now utilize switching power supplies (including CFL bulbs) which generate tons of electrical noise coupled back on the homes power lines. This noise can corrupt the X10 signal. Also switching power supplies and UPS's have built in filters which many times, acts as a "signal sucker", attenuating the X10 signal. Finally, the originating X10 signal is only coupled to one phase of the US homes internal wiring, so must somehow get coupled over to the opposite phase. Again back in the 1980's and 1990's the homes 220V appliances helped to perform this task since they bridged both phases. Today, some type of passive or amplifying coupling is almost always needed between the phases to ensure the X10 signal gets from one phase to the other.

These caveats are one of the main reasons you won't see "typical" propagation figures.
However there is a forum comment from a user who is pushing PLC down a 250 foot run of Romex to an out building. I am sure he had a repeater/coupler in his system.


Now about the RF range...sigh, again there is no "unhindered environment". If you search "range" on this forum, you will see it runs from 10 feet to 100 feet depending on open air, number of walls, construction material, antenna modifications...etc. 

Finally I think you will find this series of PLC articles from "Uncle Phil" very informative.  There will be a pop quiz next Thursday.
http://www.act-remote.com/PCC/uncle.htm

[HA Dave]

............. This is a theoretical exercise, I am not looking solve a particular problem or know whether X10 is suitable for a particular case .............

63 feet (This is a theoretical distance and may or may not solve any particular problem or be useful or suitable for any particular setup).

[dave w]

 

I wish I had thought of that.

[beelocks]

17.3/4" less than you actually need

[Cambria]

My install currently crosses three - three phase electrical panels covering the lobby and garage level of a 11 story building. My control PC is approx 125 feet (of wire) away from panel "A" - which has a phase coupler/repeater; panel "A" is 511 feet from panel "B" which also has a phase coupler/repeater; and panel "C" is 318 feet away from panel "B". 

If I send a signal from my PC to control a switch on panel "C" it's traveling roughly 950 feet (and it works as long as I use a macro to repeat the command two or three times).

So far I've been able to get a clear signal from panel "A" phase 2 to panel "C" phase 3, but panel "C" phase 1 & 2 still have no response. Don't know why yet...

Hope that helps.

[Brian H]

Are you saying. The building is three phase. With 208 Volts between lines and 120 volts any line to neutral?
Three phase can add challenges to X10 communications. So can noise in large buildings.

[JeffVolp]

My install currently crosses three - three phase electrical panels covering the lobby and garage level of a 11 story building.

Wow, this sounds like a tough one for X10 control.  A building of that size must have a multitude of noise sources that can interfere with X10 powerline communications.

Some additional detail would be helpful.

What controller are you using?

Is there just a single source for control, or are there X10 controllers distributed throughout the building?

If multiple controllers, do they control just local X10 loads, or do they have to control loads powered by all three panels?

Where are the X10 controlled loads located?  About how many?

Can you run links between the panels to provide direct routes for the X10 signals?

Jeff

[Cambria]

Brian: Yes this is a 3 phase 208 volt building. I'm fortunate that the common areas are separate from the residences however - yes I have been struggling with noise issues.  Like I mentioned in my first post; I have to use macros to send commands multiple times to ensure that they get through.  I've also had a few instances of random noise turning devices off at undesired times. 

Jeff: Like I said above, noise has been an issue but so far I've been able to cut it back sufficiently enough to get a signal through when I focus on a specific phase, circuit or load.

Here are a couple of the details that were requested:

The controller is a CM15A (so far just one for the entire building) connected to a PC in my office.

I gave a little background on the three panels I have integrated so far in my first post but here is some more detail: 

What I'm controlling so far:
Landscape lighting - a total of 262 lights that are a combination of LED, fluorescent and Incandescent, all controlled through two magnetic contactors which are switched by one WS13A each and a single 15 amp circuit also switched with a WS13A. The contactors allow me to control multiple circuits (8 each) with a single 15amp control circuit. Noise filters have been placed between the contactors and the WS13As. Code N1

Garage Lighting - four 20amp circuits (WS13As) controlling 78 four foot fluorescent lights. Noise filters in use on each circuit. Codes A1- North & A2 -South

Lobby lighting - 48 LED can lights controlled by PSM04s, 5 picture frame lights controlled by XPR-I outlets. Code B1 North, B2 South & B3 Central.

Four exterior stairwells - 88 2 foot fluorescent lights controlled by four WS13A switches (one per stairwell).

After my post yesterday I added control of four more panels that are located on the 11th floor of the building the farthest of which added another 600 feet of copper wire to my system (1 phase coupler/repeater in each).  This enabled me to control my stairwell lighting and eventually an additional 96 8watt LED lights that will be located on exterior breezeways. So far I have a good signal at the farthest point which is now roughly 1200 feet from the CM15A (but remember I am repeating/amplifying the signal about every 400 feet).
 
Finally As I also mentioned in my first post I was not getting a sufficient signal to phases 1 and 2 in panel "C".  However after adding three more filters yesterday to pool pumps, phase 1 is now working reliably.  Today I will be installing 8 more noise filters to pump and fan motors to reduce noise further. If this doesn't solve the problem then Yes I will be bridging panels to provide direct routes for X10 signals.

I hope I answered your questions sufficiently. Does that help?
   

[Brian H]

Sounds like you have covered it nicely.

I will have to study your response.

[JeffVolp]

Thank you for the more detailed information.

With that many repeaters, I am surprised you are not having a problem with "command ping-pong".  Or, maybe you are using the ACT repeater that has an option to prevent that from happening.

If you are not already using the ACT repeater, you might consider the ACT CR134.  That unit can be networked via a digital link if you are willing to run a wire between the panels.  It is designed to be used in very large installations, such as yours.

I had been looking at adding that capability to the XTB-IIR, but it isn't there yet.

Jeff