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[madbrain]

I'm using three XPS3 in my home theater to control the 3 sets of cans.

Set #1 of 6 large cans is controlled by one XPS3, and XPSS in another room.
Set #2 has 9 smaller cans.
Set #3 has 5 even smaller cans.

I have both an IR543 controller plugged into the wall to control the lights via IR remote from the couch, and a TM751 to control the lights via RF from outside the home theater.

I am having the following issues :

1) For set #1, in the 2nd room, the light on the XPSS never comes on, regardless of the state of the switch. This is very minor, but still bothers me. What could cause this problem ? Does anyone else have this problem ?

2) I have a lot of issues with the 2nd set of cans. I bought some R20 11W CFLs from 1000lightbulbs.com . They are Overdrive brand. When I use them, I can use the X10 controllers to turn the lights ON, but they will not come OFF. Even if I press the physical buttons on the IR543. The only way to turn the lights off is to press the XPS3 wall switch. Once that happens, none of the other X10 signals for the other switches work either.

I have tried other lightbulbs from Home Depot and Lowe's, of 11W and 14W. The mix I have right now somehow works. But it took hours to find a working combination. And occasionally I still get into the state where the X10 signals stop working - I can't turn the lights off after turning them on, unless I get up. Which is very annoying - ruins the whole point of having X10 !

3) I'm using some 7W CFLs candelabra-style CFLs in 3rd set of cans. These are the only CFLs I could find that fit. And they stick out... But better than 50W halogens they replaced still. However, if I fill more than 2 cans, I can't turn the lights off via X10 anymore too. If I remove some bulbs from set #2 I can add some to set #3 . It's quite strange.

FYI, I'm using some FEIT 15W CFLs from Costco in set #1 . Those never seem to cause issues after they are turned on. I can always turn them off.

From my google searches, the problems with X10 signals no longer going through appear to be related to noise issues from certain bulbs. What are specific models of bulbs that are known to work well ? And is anyone running as many CFLs as I am on one phase with 3 switches ?
FYI, the house has over 220+ cans with CFLs total. But the ones in the HT are the only ones on X10.

4) I have also noticed that if I leave set #3 completely empty of bulbs, a faint light comes up on the 3rd XPS3 even if "off" state. Is this expected ?

[Brian H]

Noise and signal suckers of the X10 signals.

Do you have any phase coupling between the homes phases? If not the X10 signals will have a hard time reaching half the homes wiring.

Do you have any X10 type filters on your electronic devices? Many electronic devices can absorb X10 signals or make power line noise.

1) Sounds like a phase issue. Signals not getting to the switch.
2) Weak signals and the Overdrive bulbs making enough noise to not allow them to turn off. When off the noise is not there and you can turn them on. Are the Overdrives CFL or CCFL? I have some of their CCFLs and am not impressed with them.
3) Also sounds like noise or weak signals.
4) Maybe normal. There could be some small leakage from the relay on or off status sensing circuit.

You may get better results with trying to lower the noise or coupling the phases of the home. Than hand selecting bulbs.

Links to some troubleshooting tips.

http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm
http://www.act-remote.com/PCC/uncle.htm

[JeffVolp]

As you know, some CFLs can be problematic.  The internal switching circuitry can radiate noise onto the powerline.  If that noise is near the X10 bandpass, it can block X10 modules from decoding the commands.

We have ceiling cans here too, but only a fraction of what you have.  So I didn't have to be concerned about what type of bulb is in each of those fixtures, I installed Leviton 6287 filters behind each X10 switch controlling those lights.  As a result, we have never had any problem with those X10 switches in spite of the diverse selection of bulbs.  In fact the only CFLs that generate noise are the ones in my office/lab.  They are not on the X10 phase, and don't corrupt X10 communication.  I have not filtered them because they are handy for testing.

One other thing to consider is that even though you are only using X10 in your HT, noise from other CFLs can also interfere if those circuits are on the same phase at your distribution panel.  If the HT is the only circuit that will ever be controlled by X10, you can isolate that circuit from the rest of your electrical system with a 20 amp XPF filter.  That would avoid having to add individual filters on each CFL lighting circuit.

Jeff

[dave w]

1) For set #1, in the 2nd room, the light on the XPSS never comes on, regardless of the state of the switch. This is very minor, but still bothers me. What could cause this problem ? Does anyone else have this problem ?

Check your instruction sheet. I believe it states the XPSS LED to be inactive.

[madbrain]

Dave w,

1) For set #1, in the 2nd room, the light on the XPSS never comes on, regardless of the state of the switch. This is very minor, but still bothers me. What could cause this problem ? Does anyone else have this problem ?

Check your instruction sheet. I believe it states the XPSS LED to be inactive.

Thanks, you are right ! I had an electrician install the wall switches so I didn't notice that. That's one I don't need to worry about anymore.

[madbrain]

Noise and signal suckers of the X10 signals.

Do you have any phase coupling between the homes phases? If not the X10 signals will have a hard time reaching half the homes wiring.

There is no phase coupling anywhere at the moment. In the home theater, all the recessed cans are on the same phase. Some of the wall outlets are on one phase, and some on the other. I made sure the IR543 and TM751 transceivers are both plugged in to the correct phase outlet. On the other outlets, they just never work.

Do you have any X10 type filters on your electronic devices? Many electronic devices can absorb X10 signals or make power line noise.

The only thing hooked to X10 switches are those recessed cans. Do you mean filters for all the electronic devices in the house ? I have dozens. In the home theater alone there are a bunch. They are on filtered switches (some Monster, some Belkin).

1) Sounds like a phase issue. Signals not getting to the switch.

Looks like it's a feature actually, that XPSS LED is not supposed to work. I wonder why it's there.

2) Weak signals and the Overdrive bulbs making enough noise to not allow them to turn off. When off the noise is not there and you can turn them on. Are the Overdrives CFL or CCFL? I have some of their CCFLs and am not impressed with them.

They are CFL. http://1000bulbs.com/product/2768/FC11-R2027OD.html

3) Also sounds like noise or weak signals.

So what do I do about the noise ?
What kind of filter should I use ? Do I need one filter at each XPS3 switch ? Or a filter for each recessed can ?

4) Maybe normal. There could be some small leakage from the relay on or off status sensing circuit.

I'm not overly worried about it. Especially since I'm trying to fill those cans. But right now I can't because of the noise issues.

You may get better results with trying to lower the noise or coupling the phases of the home. Than hand selecting bulbs.

I need some pointers for bulb selection. Clearly the ones I have used don't work too well.

http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm
http://www.act-remote.com/PCC/uncle.htm

Thanks, I'll look at that.

[madbrain]

We have ceiling cans here too, but only a fraction of what you have.
  So I didn't have to be concerned about what type of bulb is in each of those fixtures, I installed Leviton 6287 filters behind each X10 switch controlling those lights. 

Thanks, I'm going to look at that model. Does it need a lot of room ? I know my electrical boxes are fairly tight already. Each of them has at least 3 switches in them. sigh.

One other thing to consider is that even though you are only using X10 in your HT, noise from other CFLs can also interfere if those circuits are on the same phase at your distribution panel.  If the HT is the only circuit that will ever be controlled by X10, you can isolate that circuit from the rest of your electrical system with a 20 amp XPF filter.  That would avoid having to add individual filters on each CFL lighting circuit.

There is actually one other room where I'm using X10. It is my home office. I have another XPS3 that replaced a switch that was stupidly placed behind a door. It controls 2 recessed cans with CFLs in that room. But it is on the other phase. That switch never has any problem operating, though.

I do plan to expand my X10 network throughout the house. But I don't want to use it to control any recessed lighting. 80 of the 105 switches in the house were recently replaced with vacancy sensors to switch off the lights automatically when nobody is home. The switches were previously dimmers that prevented any CFLs from working. Even "dimmable" CFLs did not work.

I only want to add X10 appliance modules to shut things down when nobody is home, and turn them back on when needed. The real-time idle power consumption of my home (with no lights on) is between 730 and 900 watts at the Smartmeter depending on whether the fridges/freezers are in cooling phase or not.

[JeffVolp]

Thanks, I'm going to look at that model. Does it need a lot of room ? I know my electrical boxes are fairly tight already. Each of them has at least 3 switches in them. sigh.

The Leviton 6287 is fairly small (1.6" x 1.9" x .8"), and it fit behind the X10 switches in all our electrical boxes.  If there is no room there, you can install it at the first light in the string.

I do plan to expand my X10 network throughout the house. But I don't want to use it to control any recessed lighting. 80 of the 105 switches in the house were recently replaced with vacancy sensors to switch off the lights automatically when nobody is home.

Ceiling lighting is usually on separate circuits from wall outlets.  Since those lights will not be controlled by X10, you can isolate those entire circuits with 20A XPF filters if noise from those CFLs becomes a problem.

For the X10 controlled lighting, you would install one 6287 between each X10 switch and the ceiling fixtures controlled by that switch.

Jeff

[madbrain]

hi Jeff,

Thanks, I'm going to look at that model. Does it need a lot of room ? I know my electrical boxes are fairly tight already. Each of them has at least 3 switches in them. sigh.

The Leviton 6287 is fairly small (1.6" x 1.9" x .8"), and it fit behind the X10 switches in all our electrical boxes.  If there is no room there, you can install it at the first light in the string.

I do plan to expand my X10 network throughout the house. But I don't want to use it to control any recessed lighting. 80 of the 105 switches in the house were recently replaced with vacancy sensors to switch off the lights automatically when nobody is home.

Ceiling lighting is usually on separate circuits from wall outlets.  Since those lights will not be controlled by X10, you can isolate those entire circuits with 20A XPF filters if noise from those CFLs becomes a problem.

For the X10 controlled lighting, you would install one 6287 between each X10 switch and the ceiling fixtures controlled by that switch.

Jeff

I purchased three of the Leviton 6287 filters . Unfortunately, there is not enough room in the electrical box. And the install instructions say not to put them together in the same box as other wiring devices. I would need to have some drywall done to make space for another box to put the filters. Kind of a pain. One of the 3 switches is a 3-way, also, and it seems I can't just put the filter together with the switch, it has to be just before the load, which means opening the ceiling drywall to find the load wires. I'm about to return the filters to Amazon before my return period runs out.

Actually, the electrical box with the 3 XPS3 switches is so tight that one of the wires (neutral) had fallen off. This apparently explained some of the issues with the 3rd switch. I had an electrician discover that. We checked everything and it seemed to have fixed every X10 problem in the home theater room when he was present.

Of course, the gremlins came back after he left
Now it's the light at the first switch that won't turn off. It may be that another wire fell off again after the electrician closed down the box . The 3 switches were tested before it was closed. Sigh.

I have put some XPF plug-in filters on everything in the home theater room except the X10 RF receiver and X10 IR543 IR receiver. Both are plugged in to the same outlet. I have tried different outlets too, and it makes no difference. I also have a Radioshack plug-in X10 remote controller.

Everything seems to work fine with RF. I can turn things on/off properly.
I now have the following problem :
1) I turn on the light at the first XPS3 switch. It doesn't matter if I do it by using local control (wall switch press), RF control, button press on the IR543, or IR signal from my remote
2) I send an IR command to the IR543. Any command. The IR543 freezes, with the red light staying on.
3) From that point on, no X10 works anymore through the IR543, from IR signal or button press, from the RF receiver, or from the plug-in remote. The only way to restore X10 functionality is to turn off the light at the XPS3 wall switch, or wait a few minutes - something like 2 to 5 minutes ! It's an inordinate amount of time.

The following scenario fails too :
4) I turn on the light at the first XPS3 switch. It doesn't matter if I do it by using local control (wall switch press), RF control, button press on the IR543, or IR signal from my remote
5) I press buttons on the IR543. For example "4" and then "ON". Usually by the first or the second button press, the IR543 freezes.
6) Same problem as 3). above with the freeze.

The following are not a problem :
7) I turn on the light at the first XPS3 switch. It doesn't matter if I do it by using local control (wall switch press), RF control, button press on the IR543, or IR signal from my remote
I issue X10 commands via RF remote, or the plug-in remote.
9) Everything behaves as expected

In other words, if I unplug the IR543, I never have any problem with X10 operation in the room. It sounds to me like my IR543 may be defective. If I'm guessing right, when it "freezes", the IR543 keeps sending incomplete X10 power-line signals and that's why X10 no longer works from the other remotes.
Should I get another IR543 ? Or is there another more reliable X10 IR receiver ?

I really need IR functionality for the home theater. The main sequence I want to work right now when I get into the home theater is :
10) use X10 RF remote to turn on one of the lights in the home theater room. It has no windows and is completely dark
11) use X10 IR remote to turn on all the HT equipment that's powered down and hooked up to a few AM466 on the same code
12) use X10 IR remote to turn lights off

But right now I get the freeze at step 11 ... And I need to get up from the couch and walk 20ft to press the wall switch and defrost things. Which is extremely annoying.
I'm getting close to giving up on x10 altogether. Any help appreciated.

[JeffVolp]

That’s too bad about the Leviton 6287s.  Some builders try to save a few cents on each box by only installing ones that just meets the code.  For a few cents more they could install boxes that allow room for larger switches or things like the 6287.

The 6287 is a notch filter that does a good job at blocking noise directly in the X10 band.  If the problem is from CFLs when they are on, they are most likely generating noise in that range.  The fix is either to somehow prevent that noise from radiating out into the rest of your electrical system, or change to a different type of CFL that does not generate noise in that range.

If you still want to pursue the 6287 filters, there is another option.  Most light fixtures include an electrical box for the connections.  All the lights I installed here had more than enough room in that box for the small 6287 filter.  The downside of this approach is the electrical box may no longer be easily accessible.  If you do take this approach, be sure to place the filter in the run between the switch and the first light in the string that it controls.

Problems that appear random are due to your system being just marginally working.  Either the signal levels are barely adequate or there is significant background noise.  In this case where you have lights that turn on but not off, it is most likely the latter problem.  Note that the noise from many sources is not fixed in frequency, and can vary with temperature, voltage, and age.  So CFLs that do not cause a problem during the summer can begin to cause a problem in the winter if the noise they produce moves down into the X10 frequency band.  There have also been reports of CFLs causing problems as they age.  Some components drift slightly in value with time, and this too could cause the frequency to move into the X10 band.

I have never used an IR543, and am not familiar with its quirks.  However, what you describe does sound like it gets stuck in a loop trying to relay commands to the powerline, but something is preventing it from completing that action.  The long turn-off time before proper functionality returns is puzzling, but it might be due to some device having to cool down again first.

Perhaps someone else who is familiar with the IR543 can confirm, but it sounds like that unit may be seeing a collision from powerline noise, and it keeps attempting to send the command.  I can see that from some high-end controllers when I am injecting noise onto the powerline for testing.  For example, HomeVision will make maybe a dozen attempts before it gives up.

As a quick test to see if is indeed noise from the CFLs, you could try removing the CFLs, and replacing a couple with incandescent bulbs to see it that resolves the IR543 problem.  If it does, then the choice is either to somehow block that noise or switch to a different CFL that does not radiate noise in the X10 frequency band.

Jeff

[madbrain]

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for your reply. As far as fixtures go, these are all recessed cans and accessing the wires is difficult. I didn't try uninstalling any of the cans. I don't know where the wires run and which fixture would be the first in the 3 strings.

I think you are right about temperature being a factor. It is cooler now than when I first got the XPSS installed a couple months ago. The circuit that is now having the problem has the 6 largest CFLs (15W R30 each). The problems are also mostly showing up when the bulbs are warming up. After they have fully warmed up, things seem to be operating OK. But usually they haven't fully warmed up before I need to send another x10 command. These are new bulbs from Costco, FEIT electric.
I tried to remove some CFLs. After 3 of the 6 were removed, the IR543 was no longer freezing during the bulb warm-up period.

I haven't seen anyone market "x10-troublefree CFLs". It is too hard to track down compatible bulbs, if they exist at all. Trial and error gets old very quickly, especially when there are lots of bulbs and different sizes involved.

I wish switches like the XPS3 had built-in filters to deal with these kind of issues, instead of requiring separate filters.

One of the key motivations for me using CFLs is lowering energy consumption and costs. If I have to spend hundreds of dollars in additional electrical and drywall work to use x10, it is not worth it.

Is there any other solution that doesn't use power-line control signals ? Maybe some switches that would be controlled wirelessly themselves ? These might not fit in my electrical box either if they exist though ...

[JeffVolp]

I understand your frustration using CFLs with X10.  Many of us are dealing with this issue now as CFLs become more prevalent.  If you think you have a problem with CFLs, 120V LEDs can be worse.  I have a Lumoform 4W 120V LED bulb that is the worst noisemaker I have seen.  It radiates a very strong signal almost exactly at 120KHz, and even caused problems on its circuit for the high-end Leviton switches with AGC.

Maybe something that could be done here on the X10 forum is keeping a log of “X10 friendly” CFLs and 120V LED bulbs.

The Phillips (correction) CFL “Earthlights” we bought over a decade ago never caused a problem for X10, but they were expensive.  Several years ago we bought a batch of n:vision CFLs at HomeDepot, and they also worked fine with X10.  I have several different brands of CFL “noisemakers” in my workshop that I use for testing.  They were from a utility company promotion maybe 8 to 10 years ago.

There is one other thing you could try.  If you can’t easily block the noise from your CFLs, an alternative is to attenuate the noise that reaches the powerline.  I developed a tuned signal sucker that presents a very heavy load to signals outside the X10 band, and also attenuates in-band noise.  If you can plug that into the CFL circuit, it may attenuate the noise enough so that X10 signals can be properly decoded.  Contact me directly if you would like to try that.

Other than blocking the noise, I don’t have a solution for your IR543 problem.  However you might consider using switches that incorporate AGC to raise their detection threshold above the background noise level.  Other than the circuit with the LED bulb, our Leviton switches have worked flawlessly since I installed them 7 years ago.  Also contact me directly if you would like to pursue this alternative.

Jeff

[madbrain]

Hi Jeff,

I understand your frustration using CFLs with X10.  Many of us are dealing with this issue now as CFLs become more prevalent.  If you think you have a problem with CFLs, 120V LEDs can be worse.  I have a Lumoform 4W 120V LED bulb that is the worst noisemaker I have seen.  It radiates a very strong signal almost exactly at 120KHz, and even caused problems on its circuit for the high-end Leviton switches with AGC.

Well, I'm sure glad I didn't buy any LEDs for my new house. They were not affordable. I just replaced all 220+ incandescent bulbs with CFLs.

Maybe something that could be done here on the X10 forum is keeping a log of “X10 friendly” CFLs and 120V LED bulbs.

That would be useful.

The Phillips (correction) CFL “Earthlights” we bought over a decade ago never caused a problem for X10, but they were expensive.  Several years ago we bought a batch of n:vision CFLs at HomeDepot, and they also worked fine with X10.  I have several different brands of CFL “noisemakers” in my workshop that I use for testing.  They were from a utility company promotion maybe 8 to 10 years ago.

I have many nVision from Home Depot. Some from Ikea, some from Lowe's, some from Costco. Some bought online. I got all kinds of shapes of CFLs so I can't buy them all from the same source.

I have used x10 for about 10 years and had all CFLs in my previous home. But I never had anything x10 hardwired in the townhouse. I only used appliance modules to control the lights. And the same IR543 in my living room for several years.
I never had any issue with anything not coming on or off. I had never even heard of x10 noise filters until a few months ago. The townhouse was 1200 sq ft, the new place is 4700 sq ft.

There is one other thing you could try.  If you can’t easily block the noise from your CFLs, an alternative is to attenuate the noise that reaches the powerline.  I developed a tuned signal sucker that presents a very heavy load to signals outside the X10 band, and also attenuates in-band noise.  If you can plug that into the CFL circuit, it may attenuate the noise enough so that X10 signals can be properly decoded.  Contact me directly if you would like to try that.

Thanks for your generous offer. I'm afraid anything that needs to be hardwired on the CFL recessed light circuit is a non-starter unfortunately unless it's a replacement for the XPS3 switch and no bigger than that. Anything additional will involve hundreds of dollars in labor to either install an additional an electrical box, or drywall/paint work on the ceiling.

Other than blocking the noise, I don’t have a solution for your IR543 problem.  However you might consider using switches that incorporate AGC to raise their detection threshold above the background noise level.  Other than the circuit with the LED bulb, our Leviton switches have worked flawlessly since I installed them 7 years ago.  Also contact me directly if you would like to pursue this alternative.

I did some google searches on the IR543 and found the following posts. They sound pretty similar to my problem :

http://www.remotecentral.com/cgi-bin/mboard/rc-x10/thread.cgi?2425
http://www.fixya.com/support/t173983-ir_543_lock_up

However they are not exactly the same since these users say the IR543 buttons do work, only IR functionality fails.
In my case, the IR543 buttons fail too.

My IR543 is located in my AV rack, near the top, just underneath my center speaker. Maybe it is electromagnetic interference. I have 3 AV racks with about 12 different pieces of equipment. They are the same equipment that I had at my townhouse before, though, where the IR543 never had a problem. But the IR543 might not have been directly underneath the center speaker. I'll try to move the IR543 somewhere else physically and see if it makes a difference. I only tried different outlets, with an extension cord. I have several outlets on different phases right next to each other.

I tried outlets on a different phase than the XPS3 switches. I have a Smarthome 4826 4-wire dryer type coupler-repeater which actually seems to work OK with all the other x10 equipment (RF transceivers; plug-in remotes). This despite that the dryer outlet is located at least 40ft (assuming direct line of sight) from the IR543 and there are probably over 200 feet of wires in between the two. That was a pleasant surprise about the plug-in coupler working accross floors.

The IR543 still exhibits the lockup problem even when hooked up to outlets on a different phase than the switch. Can the noise from those 6 CFLs really radiate accross phases ? Apparently so.
The Radioshack plug-in remote works on all outlets that I tried in the house so far, regardless of phase.

I also tried unplugging the smarthome coupler repeater from my laundry room upstairs, to see if it was the cause of the problem, but it was not.

[madbrain]

My IR543 is located in my AV rack, near the top, just underneath my center speaker. Maybe it is electromagnetic interference. I have 3 AV racks with about 12 different pieces of equipment. They are the same equipment that I had at my townhouse before, though, where the IR543 never had a problem. But the IR543 might not have been directly underneath the center speaker. I'll try to move the IR543 somewhere else physically and see if it makes a difference. I only tried different outlets, with an extension cord. I have several outlets on different phases right next to each other.

OK, I unplugged the IR543 and plugged it in other outlets around the room. Same issue when I press the buttons and turn on the first circuit. It locks up. It does that even in the back of the room, 24ft away from the front, without any electronics around. And even if there is absolutely nothing plugged to any of the outlets in the room. No HT equipment, no Airwick warmers, cordless phone charger, laptop charger, etc. A few of which were not behind XPPF plug-in filters. But they now are (I bought a bunch of XPPF on ebay ...) .

I also moved around the house with the IR543. When I go to other rooms, I can turn on that same home theater light circuit fine with the IR543 push buttons. And then the IR543 does not lock up.

The IR543 only fails when it's in the same room as those 6 ceiling CFLs and the XPS3 switch.

At this point, I made too many attemps and the CFLs are now warm. The problem is no longer reproducible anywhere and all test results become meaningless. I will have to wait another hour to try something else again. If I can think of anything

[JeffVolp]

The IR543 only fails when it's in the same room as those 6 ceiling CFLs and the XPS3 switch.

Therein may be your answer.  Since the problem only exists with those 6 CFLs, the simplest fix is to try other brands to find one that does not generate noise in the X10 frequency band.  Also, please report here the brand and model number of the offending devices so others can avoid that particular CFL.

FYI - that Tuned Signal Sucker is a simple plug-in module slightly smaller than a XPPF.

Jeff