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[madbrain]

Jeff,

The IR543 only fails when it's in the same room as those 6 ceiling CFLs and the XPS3 switch.

Therein may be your answer.  Since the problem only exists with those 6 CFLs, the simplest fix is to try other brands to find one that does not generate noise in the X10 frequency band.  Also, please report here the brand and model number of the offending devices so others can avoid that particular CFL.

FYI - that Tuned Signal Sucker is a simple plug-in module slightly smaller than a XPPF.

Jeff

The CFLs are FEIT electric brand, "Conserv Energy", bought at Costco, in packs of 4. They are flood lights, R30 size, 15W consumption, rated as 65W equivalent. I have them all over the house in many recessed cans since they were so inexpensive after PG&E utility rebate.

Does anyone know what other R30 size CFL would work OK with x10 ?
These do work fine as long as there are only 3 of them. Just not 6. The whole house is built with tons of lighting, some lighting circuits have as many as 14 cans on one switch.

Where would I plug your signal sucker ? The lighting circuit with the CFL only has the recessed cans and the XPS3 switch. No outlet is in between the switch and the CFLs.

[JeffVolp]

I'm using a bunch of R30s here too.  They were off-brand "Lightwiz" bought on clearance about 8 years ago.  They have never caused any problems for X10, but they are all isolated by Leviton 6287s.  Our noise level here runs only 10-20mVpp unless the Canon copier is on.

I do have one FEIT R30 65W replacement - BPESL15R30T.  It was purchased several years ago.  I just checked it with the XTBM, and it indicated no increase in noise level at all.  So if it is radiating any noise, it must be way out of band.

There have been reports of some bulbs of the same type causing problems while others work fine with X10.  The switching circuitry is not crystal controlled, and the frequency may vary significantly from lot to lot.

A side issue with Feit:  A little over a year ago I converted our landscape lights from 20W halogens to Feit 5-watt 12V MR16 CFLs.  I reported here at the time that I was happy with their performance from a color and intensity standpoint.  They cost about 10X what a halogen cost, but I expected the energy savings would more that pay that back over their operating life.  Using Feit’s numbers, they should have lasted about 9 years.  About a quarter failed in the first several months, but Feit quickly replaced them.  Now with a little more than a year on them, more have started to fail, and I certainly can't recommend them anymore.  Apparently the expected operating life was wildly optimistic.

Unfortunately, for the TSS to be effective, it should be plugged into a receptacle on that circuit as close to the noisemakers as possible.

Jeff

[madbrain]

Thanks. One of my brand new 150 FEIT's in the house has burnt so far over the last few months. I haven't had them replace it yet. It was a pain since it was in a very high up can.
In my previous house I changed all the bulbs to CFLs around 2000, and less than 10 had failed. I had way less than 200 total, though. I wasn't picky about brands, and it was mixed.
I will try to buy some different CFLs at local stores and see if I can solve the problem. If it does, it would be the least expensive way. But even if I find them, 5-9 years from now I will have to hunt for special noise-free CFLs again ...

Are there any screw-in type noise filters by any chance ? That would really be useful ...

I'm using a bunch of R30s here too.  They were off-brand "Lightwiz" bought on clearance about 8 years ago.  They have never caused any problems for X10, but they are all isolated by Leviton 6287s.  Our noise level here runs only 10-20mVpp unless the Canon copier is on.

I do have one FEIT R30 65W replacement - BPESL15R30T.  It was purchased several years ago.  I just checked it with the XTBM, and it indicated no increase in noise level at all.  So if it is radiating any noise, it must be way out of band.

There have been reports of some bulbs of the same type causing problems while others work fine with X10.  The switching circuitry is not crystal controlled, and the frequency may vary significantly from lot to lot.

A side issue with Feit:  A little over a year ago I converted our landscape lights from 20W halogens to Feit 4-watt 12V MR16 CFLs.  I reported here at the time that I was happy with their performance from a color and intensity standpoint.  They cost about 10X what a halogen cost, but I expected the energy savings would more that pay that back over their operating life.  Using Feit’s numbers, they should have lasted about 9 years.  About a quarter failed in the first several months, but Feit quickly replaced them.  Now with a little more than a year on them, more have started to fail, and I certainly can't recommend them anymore.  Apparently the expected operating life was wildly optimistic.

Unfortunately, for the TSS to be effective, it should be plugged into a receptacle on that circuit as close to the noisemakers as possible.

Jeff

[JeffVolp]

Are there any screw-in type noise filters by any chance ? That would really be useful ...

None that I am aware of.  Maybe that is something X10 would consider.  It certainly has the potential to be a high-volume product.

Jeff

[Brian H]

I have seen different model CFL bulbs from the same manufacturer vary widely.
I actually had one where the bulb had a capacitor from Line to Neutral to kill noise. Unfortunately that also made it an X10 signal sucker. 
I also found one older model where they had the cap from line to neutral and a coil to the center button on the plug. No noise or signal sucking. 

[madbrain]

I tried another set of bulbs, from Home Depot. R30 CFLs 15W, 65W equivalent. 2700K. I purchased dimmable because I wanted something as different as possible from the FEIT which were non-dimmable, not because I needed dimming.
Anyway, things only work right with 2 out of the 6 bulbs installed, which is worse than with the FEIT from Costco (worked with three).

I tried to let them warm up a very long time (10 minutes), but there was no way to turn them off via X10 at all. Not by IR543, plug-in RadioShack remote, or by RF transceiver. The "Off" signal was just not getting through. The IR543 only froze on a couple of occasions, so in this regard it was better than the other bulbs.

However, the noise was apparently so bad that I could no longer switch off the other lights on the other couple XPS3 in the same wall box via X10. The signals weren't getting there either.
So, with these 6 new bulbs, basically x10 was completely broken for all the lights in the room.

x10 still worked in the back of the room to turn the AV equipment on/off via appliance modules ...

I have put the FEIT back in place.

These bulbs cost $35 in packs of 4. Quite expensive. I bought two packs. They were in cardboard packaging, easy to return. Unlike all the other Ecosmart which are plastic that need to be cut. These 2 packs are going back to Costco.

My Leviton 6827 filters went back to Amazon uninstalled also.

Any ideas that don't involve an electrician or drywall work are welcome. Besides buying every brand of R30 I can find until one works.

[JeffVolp]

The only idea I have is to pose a question for the group.  Does anyone know what brands and models of R30 CFLs do not cause a problem for X10?

As I reported earlier, the one Feit R30 I have indicated no noise at all on the XTBM.  It was purchased several years ago, but was never taken out of the package until now.

Unfortunately, the real solution is to place a filter between the switch and the fixtures.

Jeff

[ggrote]

The only idea I have is to pose a question for the group.  Does anyone know what brands and models of R30 CFLs do not cause a problem for X10? [snip]

I am using seven Sylvania 16W CF16EL/BR30 bulbs in my outside soffit cans, switched by a single XPS3, controlled by a dusk-to-dawn timer on my CM15A (AHP) ... very few problems over about 14 months ... it's the only portion of my original X10 project that works, so I'm happy to talk about it!  And based on this thread I'm not replacing them with anything else until I'm ready to give up on the XPS3!   

I have no filters in that circuit ... I don't have an XTBM (yeah, I know, I already got that advice in a different thread) so I can't comment on the actual noise levels ... but I have, for example, several WS467s that will turn lights (incandescent) on and then go deaf and not be able to turn them off remotely, so a few simple assumptions would lead one to assume that the CFLs must be making less noise than a single incandescent. <sits back and waits for others to chime in on why those are really bad assumptions>

[Brian H]

Incadescent bulbs are pure resistive and should make no power line noise.

[troll334]

Hey Madbrain,
I recently performed an off-the-cuff study with my CFL's. Although they are the little 15 Watters, the same theory
may apply. I took what I thought was a bad CFL (based on XTBM findings) and moved it from a metal-based lamp
assembly to a goofy (the wife likes it) decorative lamp (with almost no metal). The noise level went to zero! It turns
out that some CFL's apparently 'react' to metal in close proximity. I thinking your cans here...
This might be hard to swallow, but you might get yourself an LED-based solution and test it out; yeah I know they're
expensive. And I also recall one of the guys talking about the LED bulbs that have have more LEDs in 'em as opposed
to the ones with just a few big ones.
just a thought...

[Brian H]

I had a MicroBrite 8 watt CCFL. That would radiate noise through the air not on the power lines. As indicated by my XTBM. So the electronics in a CFL could be effected by metal close to their base. In some cases.

[dave w]

I also moved around the house with the IR543. When I go to other rooms, I can turn on that same home theater light circuit fine with the IR543 push buttons. And then the IR543 does not lock up.

The IR543 only fails when it's in the same room as those 6 ceiling CFLs and the XPS3 switch.

This is interesting. The IR543 locks up only when in the room with the CFLs and when it locks up, the IR receive LED remains on until unplugged(?). Could this be optical noise from the CFLs? In other words, once the IR circuit in the IR543 gets gated on , it stays on and locked up, from the CFLs ( yeah I know, CFLs should not be a IR source, but it is wierd that the IR543 LED remains on as if receiving a continous signal) A simple test would be to replace every CFL in th room with an incandescent and see what happens.

I have not studied the entire thread so may have missed something....I'll go back to sleep now.

[Brian H]

That could be a possibility.
I have seen things like plasma TVs interfering with IR communications.

Maybe you could see if the constant Red LED being On is the CFLs shining on the IR543. Is leave it connected with the stuck LED and cover it with maybe a box. If it unlocks. It could be the CFLs shining on the IR sensor of the IR543.

[madbrain]

I will try to cover the IR receiver on the IR543 and see if it still locks up when I operate it just by pressing the buttons, as it does now. My guess is that it will.

The cans are all metal indeed.

When the XPS3s and IR543 were first installed, and I had the incandescents in there, there was no issue.

I wonder if I could remove the cans, and put a filter above each can. That would get expensive with the 17 cans in that room, though. But XPFs can be had for relatively cheap.
Are these reliable long-term ?

[ggrote]

Incadescent bulbs are pure resistive and should make no power line noise.

Right ... so you can imagine my disappointment (and confusion) at my results ... 

The outdoor fixtures in question have built-in light sensors so that the lights will not come on during the daytime ... could that have something to do with it?