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[bkenobi]

One question.  Their shipping is a bit expensive, so I might as well see if they carry anything else interesting.  Anything else that would be helpful for other projects that's worth picking up?   

[mike]

1 cent thought:

if a ms16 works for stall 1 but not stall 2, why not 2pc ms16?  I use 2 in my barn on the same code to do its thing - to cover 2 areas that one cannot cover.

prob dumb thing to say but just in case u didnt think of it....  dont hit me!

[dave w]

One question.  Their shipping is a bit expensive, so I might as well see if they carry anything else interesting.  Anything else that would be helpful for other projects that's worth picking up?   

Mikes extra motion sensors is always a good idea, also I would get a spare PowerFlash...my bet is you will find a use for the "spare" in less than a month. 

[bkenobi]

I've considered using an extra MS16A instead of this DIY version, but the range is a bit of an issue.  I ordered the relay and a PowerFlash this afternoon.  If I don't use them in this instance, it won't hurt my feelings having either of those in the junk drawer!  But, I'm seriously considering just using a couple extra MS16A's in the future.  I think this modified sensor will work, but if not then no great loss.  I'll install it temporarily before the final mounting anyway to make sure placement will work.  Thanks for all the help with this so far!

Oh, one question about multiple sensors on the same code.  I suppose that means that you must only use the "motion sensed" signal and ignore the "motion off" command, right?  How do you avoid one sensor turning off the light if it doesn't see motion when the other one still does?  I guess it must be a phantom module/flag in AHP that keeps this from happening?

[mike]

.....How do you avoid one sensor turning off the light if it doesn't see motion when the other one still does? 

heehee!  I bet if you read your line above again you see the answer

(times up:  if not, how about this:  if the one that didn't see the motion to turn on to begin with didn't see it, how will it send an off command?

but seriously, there are examples on here about how to take control of the ons and offs to stop the offs when you DO move from one stall to the other....  i recall a particullary good one about 2 sensors in the bathroom to keep the lite on while the better half was in the shower.....

[dave w]

How do you avoid one sensor turning off the light if it doesn't see motion when the other one still does?  I guess it must be a phantom module/flag in AHP that keeps this from happening?

Yes, you would need flags with conditionals to prevent MS "A" from turning off the HCUC after the motion leaves it's field of view, when the other MS "B" is still seeing motion.

[bkenobi]

Thanks again.  I found that a couple of the wired motion sensors detects far enough out to see my vehicles come in the driveway as well as see people walking near the house.  Even better, one of them meets the WAF threshold so I can install it!  I much prefer the size and color of the MS units, but since it doesn't function the way I need, it will have to go...to a different project.

I may opt to expand the system in the front at some point to cover a couple small dead zones, but I'm not particularly worried about them since they will be covered by other lighting or are close enough to the switch.

[bkenobi]

My order from All Electronics arrived last weekend and I've been playing with things since.  I figured this would be a quick and easy project, but for some reason that's not the case.  I'm not sure what to do to get things up and running, so I figured I'd ask the users here to get some ideas.

The motion sensor works great when I have it hooked up to a light bulb.  As it's designed, it will turn on the light when it's powered up for a few seconds and then kick it off until it sees motion.  When I attach the relay to the output of the motion sensor (switched 120vac), the relay turns on but never turns off.

So, I tried one more config.  I hooked the relay up in parallel with a light bulb.  Lo and behold, it works!  I figure this is because the relay is a coil (inductive load) and a light bulb is a resistive load.  I suspect the motion sensor expects or perhaps even checks for a resistive load and when not seen, it doesn't send out any voltage.  As a check, I hooked a DMM to the output and to the neutral and it only shows 1-2 volts when it sees motion.

I guess the easiest thing to do is to hook up a lightbulb in the garage as a motion indicator, but I'm really not interested in wasting a bunch of power.  If I understand correctly, I could just use a resistor to simulate the light bulb.  With the equation p=v^2/r, I could use a 240 ohm resistor to simulate a 60 watt bulb.  If I want to use a smaller bulb, I could use a larger resistor (1440ohm for 10w).  But, do I also need a diode and/or any other components to keep things working right?

I think for now I'll try finding the smallest wattage bulb I can and try that.  Maybe I can use a CFL and get things down to 17 watt.  Hmmm...

[bkenobi]

Maybe I can use a CFL and get things down to 17 watt.  Hmmm...

Well, that was a resounding NOOOOO!!!!!!

The relay bounced and the bulb flashed rapidly.  So, obviously, this motion sensor will NOT work with an inductive type load.  I think I'll just head to the home store and find a small wattage small footprint bulb that I can install in the garage.  If anyone has a way to do this without a bulb, PLEASE make a suggestion.

Thanks!

[Brian H]

I suspect the motion sensor has a triac and not a relay in it to switch the lights on and off.
So it is just like you tried to use a relay or CFL and an X10 dimmer module.

Your math is correct for a simulated 60 watt bulb as the resistor would have to be a 60 watt resistor or magic smoke is released.

The small wattage incandescent bulb maybe your best choice.

[dave w]

The relay bounced and the bulb flashed rapidly.  So, obviously, this motion sensor will NOT work with an inductive type load. 

Does the motion sensor instructions indicate any type of minimum load? Brians thoughts about a triac is probably correct and the inductive relay is causing enough phase shift to prevent the triac from going in to full cut-off. A snubber network across the triac might cure (resister and cap in series from T1 to T2 on the triac). I can't remember typical values and will look it up. But, like Brian suggested a small incandescent load might be enough of a "quench" get the triac to cut-off. Try a night light.

[Knightrider]

What's the brand on the motion sensor?

[bkenobi]

Heath Zenith model SL-5316.  I also tried SL-5716 which appears to be a newer model based on the internals.

http://www.amazon.com/Heathco-SL-5316-BZ-Deluxe-Replacement-Motion/dp/B000OI387U
http://www.amazon.com/Heath-Zenith-SL-5716-WH-270-Degree-Replacement/dp/B001DU0HKO

My wife prefers the bronze color, so I'm planning on using that one.  I went to Home Depot this morning and found a standard A style bulb in 7.5 watt.  I will install it for now, but I'd really rather have a solid state device that won't burn out (thus breaking the motion sensor).

I was reading on an auto forum where someone wanted to use a relay in place of a turn signal flashing bulb (no idea why).  He used the equation I posted before to determine that he needed a 4.11 ohm resistor for his 35 watt bulb on a 12 volt system.  That was a DC system, so he also had to install a relay across the power and ground sides.  Additionally, he had to deal with the inductive load of the coil, but I really didn't understand that part.  However, that was on a DC system where power only flows 1 way.  In my case, I'm using AC across the coil, so I shouldn't need to worry about a diode to allow the current to bleed back to ground since ground switches between the legs at 60Hz.  Anyone have any thoughts?  This is really well beyond my freshman/sophomore level EE classes I took many years ago.

[Brian H]

I found the SL5316 manual on the Heath Zenith site.
I am sure it uses a Triac for light control.
Manual says Incadescent only.
No Fluorescent Type bulbs.
Also has a Dual Brite function. Where the light can be first turned on at 50% for a few settable times.
Also indicated that it has a photocell and only goes on at night.

[Knightrider]

the dual brite thing explains the triac.  these are a little fancier than what I've used, and I'm thinking that when the unit goes back to 50% you'd have a hard time getting the relay to release.   I still haven't got around to getting a ladder to see what kind I use, but they are Heath, and do "click" when they activate.  I'm also very sure that I never paid more than $5 for any unit.

Doubt that any of that helps, but thought I'd throw it in.

PS.  I also use these to control washing machine pumps and a vast array of solenoids harvested from washing machines, ice makers and dishwashers at halloween.