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Author Topic: Is it possible with x10?  (Read 5956 times)

helac

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Is it possible with x10?
« on: October 07, 2011, 08:27:42 PM »
Hello :)
I'm new to x10 technologies, and I have one question:

Is it possible to control 15-30 devices (2 operating regimes) within 1000 meters distance using x10?

Question may sound stupid, or meanless, so I will explain a bit. I'm electrical engineering student, and we started pilot project about controlling relatively small block of street lights using power line communication. Light bulbs have 2 operating regimes, full power and half power, so it's not just ON/OFF.
Local companies have huge interest in this project, if we complete it successfully, it will probably be implemented.
Currently, I'm trying to find most simple solution, and I'm in a dead end pretty much, so i appreciate any help!
I'm located in Bosnia&Herzegovina, Europe. (230V,50Hz)

If my topic is at wrong place, please give me some directions.

Sorry for potential English mistakes.

Regards,
Alen
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dhouston

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Re: Is it possible with x10?
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2011, 10:30:11 PM »
Possibly - but we need more details.

How much current per street lamp at full and half power?

Are the lights within a block interconnected with no transformers?

FYI powerline signals have been used for about 100 years by electric utility companies to handle switching, etc. From Wikipedia... "Low-frequency (about 100-200 kHz) carriers impressed on high-voltage transmission lines may carry one or two analog voice circuits, or telemetry and control circuits with an equivalent data rate of a few hundred bits per second; however, these circuits may be many miles long."
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helac

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Re: Is it possible with x10?
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2011, 04:43:41 AM »
dhouston, thanks for your reply. Here are details:

-one lightbulb has max. power of 200W (at 220V, it current should not be more than 1A)
-lights within one block are interconnected without any transformers.

Do you see any kind of solution now?
Thank you very much for your time.
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Brian H

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Re: Is it possible with x10?
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2011, 06:34:32 AM »
You may want to look at some of the modules Marmitek offers.
They are 230 volt 50 cycle. Here we are 120 volts 60 cycles and don't have some of the goodies they offer.
http://www.marmitek.com/en/products/home-automation-security/x-10-home-automation.php

X10 Europe also may have modules that fit your needed.
http://www.x10europe.com/ha/overview.htm
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dhouston

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Re: Is it possible with x10?
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2011, 07:36:22 AM »
One of these modules at each light
would probably work.

You would need to set all for the same address and you will need a wired (not wireless) controller to turn them on/off/dim. Wireless would make it too easy for anyone with an X-10 remote to mess with them.

Each block needs isolation from noise in the 120kHz range which can cause problems. You referred to local companies
which conjures up visions of factories with equipment generating lots of electrical noise.

You would probably be better off asking this of a knowledgeable European X-10 dealer. I've worked with Kwong Li at www.laser.com and know he can probably answer your questions and point out possible pit-falls. Others may be equally qualified but I have no personal experience with other dealers. Of course, Marmitek might be your best source for information.

If you are unaware of them, http://echelon.com/ does a great deal of very sophisticated data transfer via powerlines. They are another, albeit much more expensive, alternative. They do an enormous amount of business in Europe.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2011, 07:39:13 AM by dhouston »
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dave w

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Re: Is it possible with x10?
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2011, 09:36:34 AM »
FWIW
I think for an X10 powerline solution, you would need some PLC amplification for the 1000M distance. X10 signals have a tough time traveling 300 feet down a wire, and we are talking over 3000 feet for this application.
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dhouston

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Re: Is it possible with x10?
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2011, 11:19:45 AM »
You might also want to consider DMX-512 which is used for theater lighting. It is based on RS485 but I do not know whether it is capable of the same distance as RS485 (for which there are repeaters to give even greater distance). There has been a lot of DIY and hobbyist interest in DMX so you might find some low cost solutions. Of course, it has the added cost of a control cable.

The limited distance of typical household X-10 use is due to signal attenuation caused by other devices plugged into the powerline (many with a capacitor across the mains) and to overall capacitance of the wiring. Neither may be a major factor here. So I would not rule out X-10. And, I do not know whether this area is subject to Cenelec rules which limit PLC amplitude to 5Vpp.

Also, if distance is a problem, you could have multiple X-10 controllers (e.g. CM12), themselves controlled via something like XBee.

Ripple Control has been around since about 1922 and covered distances measured in many miles over high voltage transmission lines.

One final point, with X-10, do not use two-way modules as the transmitter circuitry loads the powerline, attenuating signals. I think the Marmitek module I referenced is one-way. You might also check to see if Irave, in Italy, still makes X-10 compatible equipment. They used a reed relay to disconnect the transmitter to avoid this issue.  

EDIT: I guess that wasn't the final point. You should also check into the Powerline Alliance's HomePlug Command & Control. I haven't seen any end products but the standard was approved a few years ago and there is silicon available.

Still more: Look at Microchip's AN236. While designed for 120V, it shows using a PIC to send/receive X-10 PLC. You can adapt it to 230V. The biggest issue is pushing enough current to the powerline. Should you want to explore this, a company that supplies AVR Chips with a Basic language interpreter preinstalled, added low level X-10 functions (at my request) a few years ago. It was meant to interface with the TW523/XM10 but I can check with them to see if they could add an option to output 120kHz bursts rather than the 1mS gate. If so, it would make child's play of developing a controller similar to AN236. Also, you can use off-the-shelf 455kHz IF transformers to couple to the powerline.

12-15 years ago, there were several companies supplying powerline modem chips which could be adapted for either X-10 or for your own system. Some are FSK which would help with noise. Unfortunately, my references disappeared when a network HDD died a couple of years ago but a search on powerline modem may turn up something useful. Many are no longer made but their datasheets included schematics you might find useful. For example...
« Last Edit: October 08, 2011, 12:44:39 PM by dhouston »
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luke03

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Re: Is it possible with x10?
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2011, 01:10:44 AM »
Is power line communication limited to X10 kind of protocol only?  If you can run ethernet over power line, it can easily to 1000 meter distance. At each point, you can put a low cost WebControl board, then from anywhere on this ethernet over power line, you can send command to turn lights on and off.
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helac

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Re: Is it possible with x10?
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2011, 05:30:22 PM »
First of all, i want to thank you all, for massive support!  :)%
I have a list of replies, for all of you:

 - Marmitek truly has nice set of hardware, i will examine it as soon as i can.  Lamp-/dimmer module, MicroModule, on / off / dim looks really nice, but we are working with specific light bulbs: (i really don't know how to explain this in English) like it's "weak" bulb inside of "strong" bulb (manual control requires 2 switches here). its like a car's lights... i hope you will understand :/

- I contacted Mr. Kwong Li, and I'm awaiting his reply

- You mentioned, theater lightning, it requires control cable. Unfortunately, we must implement our system into existing street lights, no additional cables are allowed. Also, theater lightning is sophisticated, all i need is ON/OFF for strong bulb, and ON/OFF for weak bulb(which is inside of strong bulb 8) ).
EDIT: (there are 2 "strings that glow" inside one bulb)

- I also would not rule out x10, because block of street lights are supplied directly from transformer, bulbs are almost fully resistive, and street lights are pretty much isolated from any potential noise generators.

- You also recommended me some chips. It sounds challenging, but we are allowed only to use built and tested modules. we should not build any PCBs. Unfortunately.

You guys really helped me a lot! And i really appreciate it!
I will continue my research, feel free to comment!
If you have any other ideas, let me know.
Also, when i find solution, i will post it here.

Sorry for my English mistakes, i believe there are plenty of them.

Grateful, Alen.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2011, 05:32:33 PM by helac »
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dave w

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Re: Is it possible with x10?
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2011, 05:43:45 PM »
Quote from: helac on October 09, 2011, 05:30:22 PM
Sorry for my English mistakes, i believe there are plenty of them.
"Phooey"
Your English is better than most of our high school English teachers.

It sounds like your bulbs have a high filament and a low filament. How are they currently being switched?  You might need two Marmitek controllers per light (one for each filament).

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dhouston

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Re: Is it possible with x10?
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2011, 08:14:06 PM »
Quote from: helac on October 09, 2011, 05:30:22 PM
- I contacted Mr. Kwong Li, and I'm awaiting his reply
Tell him I recommended him.

Quote
- You mentioned, theater lightning, it requires control cable. Unfortunately, we must implement our system into existing street lights, no additional cables are allowed. Also, theater lightning is sophisticated, all i need is ON/OFF for strong bulb, and ON/OFF for weak bulb(which is inside of strong bulb 8) ).
EDIT: (there are 2 "strings that glow" inside one bulb)
I just mentioned several options, not knowing your exact requirements.

Use two of these for each lamp...

Quote
- I also would not rule out x10, because block of street lights are supplied directly from transformer, bulbs are almost fully resistive, and street lights are pretty much isolated from any potential noise generators.
I would try with a controller at one end and switch modules at the other. If that's not reliable, try with the controller in the middle, etc.

I would use this controller...
and you will need this to interface...

Quote
Sorry for my English mistakes, i believe there are plenty of them.
I'm sure your English is better than what we might do with your native language.

Unfortunately, the controller only outputs 5Vpp - older designs were 10Vpp. If you need additional power (and are not subject to Cenelec rules), Jeff Volp sells a bigger hammer that can boost the output to as much as 25Vpp. He may even have a model that you can use in place of the two transmitter devices I recommended. Perhaps, he will post to this thread.

And, I cannot speak for Jeff, but I would love to see you try it using 5Vpp over the 1000m maximum distance. It would give us a baseline measurement in a noise-free, attenuator-free environment which we are never likely to see here.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2011, 08:46:23 PM by dhouston »
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JeffVolp

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Re: Is it possible with x10?
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2011, 01:04:53 AM »
1000 meters is a LONG distance for X10.  I know some people are using it for long distances, but I don't think anyone is pushing it that far.  The problem is the 120KHz signal falls off rather quickly as it propagates down the line.

As Dave said, I do offer a 240V 50Hz version of the XTB-IIR, which can pump out a much stronger signal than normal X10 transmitters.  However, I question whether even that signal can make it 1000 meters.  From your description, it sounds like the street lights run off their own dedicated set of wires.  If so, the major impediment to the signal will be the lights themselves.  So it may be feasible.

The XTB-IIR provides an opto-isolated TW523 interface (like the XM10E) for your control signal.

In response to Dave’s comment about offering a single device that would replace the two he suggested, I have completed development of the XTB-232, which is a high-power X10 transmitter with a RS232 interface that accepts the CM11A "real-time" commands.  That is available now in a 120V 60Hz unit.  The next iteration of the PCB will support a 240V 50Hz version, but that won't be available until early next year.

Jeff
« Last Edit: October 10, 2011, 09:05:31 AM by JeffVolp »
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dhouston

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Re: Is it possible with x10?
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2011, 07:58:50 AM »
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