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[mlmurray]

I've been reading a lot on the forums here and have gotten pretty confused about LED lighting, it seems that there isn't a "yes or no" answer to it all.  I'd like to get some equipment and try it out, but I'm not even sure what to get started with.
My house is 80% LED (Phillips 12.5 Watt Dimmable EndureLED).  The top 2 floors are completely replaced but the basement is still a mix of CFL and incandescent, I will upgrade them at a later date.  The house was built in '89 and for the purposes of this we'll assume that we have a neutral wire.
There are a ton of 3 way switches and a lot of the lighting is on pull chains on ceiling fans.  I've seen my exact bulbs mentioned here on the forums here and it was said that they don't introduce much interference, so hopefully that won't be a problem, my concern is; with a neutral wire are LED's typically ok?   Which wall switches and 3 way wall switches support a neutral wire?  And, what if, somewhere in the house the neutral and ground are shorted?  Will being at the same ground potential negate the benefit of having the separate wire?

Thanks!
Matt

[mlmurray]

Cool, thanks.  Dimming is not important.  Nice to have in some situations, but by no means a requirement, and since about 50% of our lighting comes from ceiling fans (light and fan wired to a single switch) I didn't figure dimming from the wall switch would be a good idea on them anyway.
So when you say "WS14A is the companion switch for three way setups" does that mean I need a WS13A as the 'master' and then a WS14A as the 'slave', and is the WS13A also capable of being a standard (non-3way) switch in of itself?

[Brian H]

Sorry I was rewriting my reply and it may look like I am out of order. 
Do you want to try and dim the Philips EnduraLED Bulbs? I have a few myself.
X10 wall switches steal power through the load. So CFL and LED bulbs will not work with them.
The On and Off only WS13A is a relay type and uses a neutral so it will work with LED and CFL Bulbs.
In a multi switch setting a WS14A Companion switch can control the WS13A Master.

Are there any places where you may want to plug in a table lamp. Lamp Modules and Appliance Modules should work with CFLs and LEDs.

Are you thinking of an automation controller that can do things on its own or would manual buttons on a tabletop controller or remote controls be a way to start?

You may need to think about phase coupling and power line noise issues.

[Brian H]

WS13A can be used as a single switch. It has a trigger input the WS14A can use if you want a three way setup.

X10Pro XPS3 is their model of the WS13A.
http://www.x10pro.com/pro/pdf/xps3.pdf
XPSS is their model of the WS14A.
http://www.x10pro.com/pro/pdf/xpss.pdf

[mlmurray]

Ha, no problem, just makes me look like I'm psychic.
Yeah, there are a couple lamps (same Philips bulbs) that I'd like add in and 2 lighting strips that use halogen bulbs that may be  automated some day too.
I'll probably start with a couple remotes and add a USB transceiver to a dedicated controller PC at a later date.

As to the noise issue.  Will noise on the lines get worse the more LEDS I have turned on? And might it be worse on one circuit than another in the house or will be be consistent all over?  If I get a transceiver, wall switch and a remote, turn on every LED in the house and then see if the X10 units seem to function properly would it be reasonably safe to assume that I could scale the system up to any size and it would still function properly?

One more.  Whats the difference with the x10pro site stuff?

Thank you!!!

[Brian H]

Some say the X10Pro stuff was tested more thoroughly and did have a two year warranty.

One transceiver like a TM751 with a remote. May not get to all the places in the house.

Frequently a problem is phase coupling.
Homes are wired split single phase. Where roughly half the home is on one Line feed and Neutral and the other half on the other Line and Neutral. With high power devices using 240 connected to both Line wires. X10 and other power line protocols like Insteon. have a problem going to the street through the transformer  in the street and back on the other Line to modules. So a phase coupler is frequently needed.

More CFLs and LED bulbs making things worse. No definite answer there. Depends on the brand and model. Some may make noise and some may have filters in them to keep their electronics from getting on the power lines. That filter also absorbs X10 and Insteon power line signals. TVs and other electronics can be a probelm also.

[Brian H]

Few links to information:
http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm
http://www.act-remote.com/PCC/uncle.htm
http://www.davehouston.net/

You may also find some X10 devices in short supply. X10 is changing its business model and many devices {at least for now} are gone or hard to find with a price to match.

[dhouston]

As to the noise issue.  Will noise on the lines get worse the more LEDS I have turned on?

Not necessarily. Frequently, CFL and to a lesser extent LED lamps start making noise long after put in service. There was a recent thread about a neighbor's 8 year old CFL that suddenly started causing trouble to an X10 user across the street. Their switchmode power supplies might become noisy. LEDs are newer so it may just be that they have started exhibiting the problem.

And might it be worse on one circuit than another in the house or will be be consistent all over?  If I get a transceiver, wall switch and a remote, turn on every LED in the house and then see if the X10 units seem to function properly would it be reasonably safe to assume that I could scale the system up to any size and it would still function properly?

No, there are just too many factors. There are several sites that can help in troubleshooting.

One more.  Whats the difference with the x10pro site stuff?

Most likely, statistical sampling of a lot showed fewer problems so the whole lot got Pro cases and Pro prices. You would be hard put to document any difference in quality.

[dave w]

Will noise on the lines get worse the more LEDS I have turned on? And might it be worse on one circuit than another in the house or will be be consistent all over?  If I get a transceiver, wall switch and a remote, turn on every LED in the house and then see if the X10 units seem to function properly would it be reasonably safe to assume that I could scale the system up to any size and it would still function properly?

Whats the difference with the x10pro site stuff?

1. If the LEDs generate noise in the spectrum that X10 uses to send their commands, then yes, more lights on, will add more noise detrimental to X10 communications, on more circuit branches.
2. No, it could easily be more noise on one particular circuit. Other things make noise besides LED lights.
3. I think that would be a good test. But move the tranceiver and target module around throughout house during the test. Also be aware of phase coupling problems as you do the test (search "phase coupling" if you are unfamilier).
4. When X10 Pro was first introduced I was told by an X10 VP that "Pro" went through a "burn-in" and more extensive (read "careful") testing/tuning. Since X10 has switched factories I don't know if the "Pro" means anything anymore.

also consider a coupler/repeater as a *possible* problem solver.

[mlmurray]

Wow, thanks a ton for all the help, guys!  I think it'll be worth buying some gear and trying it out, then maybe jump in with both feet after some good tests if all seems to go well.