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Author Topic: Module works in one room not in another  (Read 9793 times)

bearhntr

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Module works in one room not in another
« on: October 08, 2012, 09:10:30 PM »

I have been using X10 modules for years.  I have recently bought my first home and I am having a very strange issue. 

I have a remote module that I used in my apt, and as long as it was on an outside wall, I could turn on the lights when I pulled into the parking lot.  In my home, I did the same thing, and try as I might - I cannot get even the lamp plugged in to the module to turn on when it is plugged into a wall socket in two of my rooms.  If I move it to another room and plug a lamp into it - it will turn ON and OFF every time. 

I also replaced a light switch with an X10 light switch to some lights in the back yard - the switch is less than 25 feet away from the module plugged into the wall.  It will sometimes tun on the lights - but will never turn them back off. 

It it possible that there is something causing the signals to go haywire?  I have tried multiple modules in various rooms.  Some rooms work fine, and others simply refuse to work - even if the remote control module is in the same room (meaning on the same circuit breaker). 

Any ideas from the masses?

Many thanks,
Curtis
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Dan Lawrence

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Re: Module works in one room not in another
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2012, 09:27:17 PM »

Probably the different outlets are on different phases.  House current is delivered at 220 volts and the circuit beakers are on each 100 phase.   Without some type of phase coupler, X10 signals can't bridge the phases.   As to the different rooms, half are one phase and the other half is on the other phase.   Modules on the same phase will work.    What type of software are you using to control them?   
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Brian H

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Re: Module works in one room not in another
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2012, 06:06:40 AM »

As Dan pointed out. Most homes have a split single phase power feed. About half the homes wiring is on one phase and the rest on the other phase. X10 power line signals have trouble getting from one phase to the other.
Small test. If you have an electric stove, oven or dryer. Turn it On and see if some of the unresponsive locations start to work.
Another problem is power line noise or devices like computers, TVs, cell phone chargers.  Can absorb X10 signals.
You may need a couple repeater between the homes phases and maybe some X10 type filters on offending electronic devices.
Here are a few links to troubleshooting and general X10 information.
http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm
http://www.act-remote.com/PCC/uncle.htm
http://www.davehouston.net/
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bearhntr

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Re: Module works in one room not in another
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2012, 09:40:59 PM »

Probably the different outlets are on different phases.  House current is delivered at 220 volts and the circuit beakers are on each 100 phase.   Without some type of phase coupler, X10 signals can't bridge the phases.   As to the different rooms, half are one phase and the other half is on the other phase.   Modules on the same phase will work.    What type of software are you using to control them?   

Dan,  I am not using any software (on a computer...yet).  I am using the handheld 16-device (via black slide-switch) controller and it's matching remote receiver which has a plug in the bottom of it.  I plug a light into it and it does work.  But I put another lamp module in another room and it does not work on the same house code. 

The strangest thing is my den.  I can put the remote receiver in that room...plug in a lamp...stand 4-6 feet or even from the other room from it and the lamp will NOT turn on.  I can walk over press the button on the receiver...and it will turn on.  If I then press the OFF button the remote.  90% of the time - the lamp goes off.   HOW WIERD IS THAT?

Maybe I should look in to these repeaters and conditioners I see talk about.  Ultimately I want to put lights in several rooms and use software to do the 'looks like home' effect.

Thanks,
Curtis
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bearhntr

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Re: Module works in one room not in another
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2012, 09:51:03 PM »

As Dan pointed out. Most homes have a split single phase power feed. About half the homes wiring is on one phase and the rest on the other phase. X10 power line signals have trouble getting from one phase to the other.
Small test. If you have an electric stove, oven or dryer. Turn it On and see if some of the unresponsive locations start to work.
Another problem is power line noise or devices like computers, TVs, cell phone chargers.  Can absorb X10 signals.
You may need a couple repeater between the homes phases and maybe some X10 type filters on offending electronic devices.
Here are a few links to troubleshooting and general X10 information.
http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm
http://www.act-remote.com/PCC/uncle.htm
http://www.davehouston.net/

Brian,  I will ook into those links you posted.  See my response to Dan above as to what it is doing...and, what I want to do. 

I have a 4bd / 2ba house with den, living room and dining room.  My goal is to have at least one module or wall switch in every room.

Does X-10 make something that can be used for ceiling fans? 

Thanks,
Curtis
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Brian H

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Re: Module works in one room not in another
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2012, 06:11:54 AM »

Does sound like you have powerline signal problems.
I hope you may find some information in the links and then can ask more questions here.

Well as for a fan module.
If it is controlled by a wall switch. The X10 WS13A or X10Pro XPS3. Have a relay in them that can control things like motors. One point is they require a neutral power feed in addition to the line and load wires.
For inside the electrical box the fan is mounted on. The XPFM relay type module could be used.
http://www.x10pro.com/pro/pdf/xpfm.pdf
http://www.x10pro.com/pro/pdf/xps3.pdf

Many X10 and X10Pro modules are now very hard to find since X10 changed from their own factory in China.  To other manufacturers doing the assemblies.
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Noam

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Re: Module works in one room not in another
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2012, 10:13:26 AM »

... I am using the handheld 16-device (via black slide-switch) controller and it's matching remote receiver which has a plug in the bottom of it.  I plug a light into it and it does work.  But I put another lamp module in another room and it does not work on the same house code. ...
That sounds like a TM751, which is a RF receiver only. The fact that the remote can control it does not indicate that your Power-Line signaling is working.

Quote
The strangest thing is my den.  I can put the remote receiver in that room...plug in a lamp...stand 4-6 feet or even from the other room from it and the lamp will NOT turn on.  I can walk over press the button on the receiver...and it will turn on.  If I then press the OFF button the remote.  90% of the time - the lamp goes off.   HOW WIERD IS THAT?
THAT sounds like a noise problem. The noise is masking or interfering with the "On" signal, but not the "Off" signal.
You might try the "breaker box test," to try and isolate the source of the noise.
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bearhntr

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Re: Module works in one room not in another
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2012, 07:05:28 PM »

Noam,

  What is this "breaker box test" that you speak of? 

  I just think it very weird that I never had a problem with these units until I moved into my house.  In fact we use them at my parent's house at Christmas.  We use one in each of the three bedrooms, the carport and the living room so that they can turn on all the Christmas lights with one button.  Mom puts candelabras in each window and is able to press one button to turn all of them and the Christmas tree on at one time.

  The weirdest part is that in my den where the lamp I want to use is plugged in - sometimes the modules work for an hour or a day, then stop working.  The only other thing in there plugged in is the APC surge strip with all my A/V stuff (Stereo , TV, Cable box, etc). 

Any ideas, and how do I perform this test you mention?

Thanks,
Curtis
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Brian H

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Re: Module works in one room not in another
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2012, 07:22:29 PM »

Unplug the surge strip and see if anything changes.
It may have a power line noise filter in it that is absorbing x10 power line signals.

You can't compare how they operated at you parents house and your house.
The power line signal distribution and possible signal suckers and noise makers would be different.

Have you looked at the tutorials we gave you links to?

Did we determine if you had any signal coupling between the two phases of power found in most homes?
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Noam

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Re: Module works in one room not in another
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2012, 09:28:51 PM »

What is this "breaker box test" that you speak of? 

Basically, there may be something in your house that is causing noise, and/or attenuating (absorbing) the signals.
The fastest way to find it is to check one circuit at a time.
You can do this one of two ways:
1) Turn off one breaker at a time (obviously you'll have to move the modules to a different circuit if you need to turn off the circuit they are on). With that circuit breaker off, test the modules. If nothing changes, then turn that breaker back on, and go to the next one. Keep going through all the breakers, until you find the one that seems to be causing the problem (you'll know it because the system works when that circuit is off).
2) Turn off ALL of the breakers (except the one you are testing your X10 devices on), and test the X10 modules with only that circuit on. If it works, then turn on one breaker at a time, until the system stops working. The circuit that (when turned back on) breaks the system, is the one with the problem.

Once you've identified the problem circuit (and there may be more than one of them), then you need to find which device(s) on the circuit could be the problem. Again, this can be done one of two ways:
1) Unplug EVERYTHING from the problem circuit, and make sure the system is working properly. Slowly plug in one thing at a time, testing the system until it stops working. Pay attention to lights which may have Compact Florescent bulbs, power supplies, cell phone chargers, etc - any of these can cause noise on the system.
2) Unplug things one at a time, until the system starts working. Pay attention to lights which may have Compact Florescent bulbs, power supplies, cell phone chargers, etc - any of these can cause noise on the system.

Once you've identified a problem device (or devices), then you can try to filter it. There are plug-in filters you can buy for most plug-in devices. Lights can be a little harder. Compact Florescent (CFL) bulbs can be big noise sources, so you may need to replace some noisy bulbs with other brands.

Another issue may be cross-phase signals. Most homes in the US are wired with "split-phase" wiring. There are two electrical phases that come from the transformer outside, each bringing in 110 volts. Connecting the two together gives you 220 Volts. Other than the 220V breakers, all of our other breakers are either on one phase or the other. Without a signal bridge or repeater, signals going from one phase to the other need to travel out to the transformer, and then back on the other phase. Most breaker boxes are arranged so pairs of breakers (horizontal rows in a vertical box, or vertical rows in a horizontal box) are on alternating phases. In a vertical breaker box, the two breakers in the first row are on "Phase A," and the next two breakers are on "Phase B," etc. If your modules seem to work only in some places, check to see if the transmitter and receiver(s) are on the same phases or not. you may need a signal bridge/coupler/repeater to pass the signals from one phase to the other.

I hope this helps.
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bearhntr

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Re: Module works in one room not in another
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2012, 06:50:55 PM »

Brian H and Noam,

  Sorry been away so long.  Been busy with work and the holiday prep.

  OK...update. 

  I find that the APPLIANCE MODULES and all three of my wireless receiver modules will work fine no matter which room I place them in.  The three LAMP modules, however, and the one WALL SWITCH modules will not work no matter where I place them.  Either in the same room with the receiver/transmitter, or in another. 

  Tried the 'remove the power strip' - which, BTW I did not plug any modules into; and had no affect on the LAMP MODULES.

  So, I can only assume there is either something wrong with the lamp modules - or something else is messing with them.  Since none of them have a button on them to test them - I guess I go back to the old test of plug a lamp into them ... and turn the lamp off/on at it's switch and see if the logic circuit will trigger them to come on. 

  Any other suggestions?

Curtis
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Brian H

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Re: Module works in one room not in another
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2012, 06:48:29 AM »

What type of bulbs connected to the wall switch and lamp modules?
Both are rated for incandescent bulbs only.
I have had varied results with dimmable LED, CFL and CCFL bulbs with lamp modules.
The two wire X10 switches in my tests. Did not work correctly even if the LED, CFL or CCFL bulb was rated to be used on a dimmer.
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dave w

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Re: Module works in one room not in another
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2012, 12:46:05 PM »


  Any other suggestions?

Curtis

Maybe some insight, in addition to the sound advice from Brian and Noam. By chance, are the Appliance Modules newer than the others? Newer X10 modules have AGC which give the module a little better noise immunity and a little better sensitivity. Could explain why they work everywhere(?).
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bearhntr

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Re: Module works in one room not in another
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2012, 02:35:16 PM »

Brian H and Dave W,

  The Appliance modules (two are older - the yellowish/tan color and two are the newer - the pure white color) - all of them are the two prong try appliance modules, but I do not believe that they have the AGC - as I tested them all by plugging in an incandescent lamp into each of them and turning it on and off slowly several times.  The lamp did not come on.  Only way to get the module to come on - you can hear it 'CLICK' is with the remote.

  The two lamp modules also behave the same way with the lamp - do not come on when pressing the button on the remote or by turning on the lamp switch off and on slowly.  I am beginning to think that they are just dead.  had them for a long time.  I guess I need to getting replacements.

  My goal was to use the modules to hook up all my Christmas lights to come on at the same time.  So far with the two remote receiver modules and the 4 appliance modules - I have almost everything hooked up.  I guess I need to get some more appliance modules 2-prong and 3-prong.  Nothing that is plugged into the modules is either CFL or LED - all incandescent and nothing with a rheostat or dimmer in them.  I know these wreak havoc with the modules. 

  Thanks to everyone for their help.

Curtis
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dave w

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Re: Module works in one room not in another
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2012, 05:16:36 PM »

Brian H and Dave W,

  The Appliance modules (two are older - the yellowish/tan color and two are the newer - the pure white color) - all of them are the two prong try appliance modules, but I do not believe that they have the AGC - Curtis
Sorry, I should have explained better. AGC is Automatic Gain Control and is part of the powerline receiver circuitry on modules made since about 2008 or 2009. If you purchsed any modules that X10 advertised as "CFL Friendly" they will have AGC. The AGC gives the newer module an edge in electrically noisy enviroments.
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