online ups vs x10

[satish]

Hii
we are using the x10 devices for the home automation they are working perfect on raw power but when it comes to online ups they are not able to receive the signal. we tried nearly 5-6 companies online ups but the problem is same, but they are working on off-line ups is there any one who got the same problem plzz help me..

[Brian H]

By online UPS. You are talking about one that is always providing the AC power so no transfer time is involved?

Do you know if the UPS has a PURE AC Sinewave output?
Good chance the waveform is noisy or not a pure sinewave.
Also they may have a filter on them that effectively kills the X10 signals.

Good chance you would also have problems with an off line UPS when powered by its internal battery.

[satish]

Thanks for the quick response.

we are using an APC SURTD 500VA online UPS. we sat with the APC vendor and also verified the output using a power quality analyzer it is generating pure sine wave.
They are saying the online ups uses a PWM based switching and the offline uses a mosfet based output generation. don't know if it has any impact

We tried with a lot of offline UPS available in the market. it is working perfectly alright in both direct and on battery mode.

Only when we are using the online UPS the controller is making a strange noise.
Appreciate if somebody having an online UPS test it and tell us if they succeeded.

[dhouston]

My guess is there's a filter killing X10 as shown in the diagram (from APC) used on this webpage...

• http://pcguide.com/ref/power/ext/ups/typesOnLine-c.html

However, if by controller is making a strange noise, you mean the X10 controller, I would suspect they build the sine wave using harmonics which may not be filtered.

[dave w]

Hii
we are using the x10 devices for the home automation they are working perfect on raw power but when it comes to online ups they are not able to receive the signal.

Dumb question here. I am probably missing part of the equasion, but: Why would you *run* X10 on a UPS? During a power outage, X10 for home automation is pretty useless as it depends on powerline sine wave to transmit commands. (Or are you trying to control devices on the output of the UPS ?).

Put X10 filters on the UPS to eliminate electrical trash or signal sucker influence from UPS. 

[Brian H]

500 VA SURTD?
I can't find any APC SURTD UPS that is that small on their web site. For the USA.
Are we maybe talking a different part of the world?
I can find some 5000 VA ones.

[dhouston]

Dumb question here. I am probably missing part of the equasion, but: Why would you *run* X10 on a UPS?

From the link I cited earlier...

Under normal operation the online UPS is always running off the battery, using its inverter, while the line power runs the battery charger. For this reason, this type of UPS is sometimes also called a double-conversion or double-conversion online UPS. This design means that there is no transfer time in the event of a power failure--if the power goes out, the inverter (and its load) keeps chugging along and only the battery charger fails.

So they run it whether they have power or not.

[dave w]

So they run it whether they have power or not.

Yeah, I got that. My question was not clear enough. A 230V 500VA inverter is good sized, but not "whole house". So what can be done with "home automation"  X10 (as stated in OP) during a power failure? Why have X10 on the output of a UPS, (implied in satish 06:10:31 AM post). Which is why I said throw some filters on the UPS.   

[dave w]

Brain just sparked. Maybe satish has house wired with a "UPS branch". In which case X10 on the branch might make sense. Regardless X10 and UPS has always been problematic.

[dhouston]

My guess is they do not want any delay after power loss for a PC and they have the CM15 plugged into the PC USB port with power from the UPS (or nearby). Harmonics from the inverter are likely causing distress for the power transformer and isolation transformer laminations in the CM15 as well as wreaking havoc on X10 PLC.

[Noam]

I read through the thread a few times, and it sounds to me like you have equipment on a UPS that you are trying to control using X10. Either that, or you have X10 equipment that you are trying to control with a controller that is plugged into a UPS - I'm not sure which.

Either way, it makes sens to me that it *would* work with an "offline" UPS, and it *won't* work with an "online" UPS.
The problem is that X10 signals can't pass through the inverter. So, in the "offline" UPS, the load is connected directly to the AC line until power goes out, and it switches to battery. The signals are able to pass through, since there is no inverter in the way.
However, the "online" UPS always has the load running off the battery, via the inverter. That's why it won't pass the X10 signals.

I hope that explains it.

[Brian H]

Many offline UPS units have a noise filter on their AC Input.
My APC BX1000 is a signal sucker and I seriously doubt any conroller on its output side will reach the incoming power outlet.

[satish]

http://www.megafileupload.com/en/file/374578/online-ups-vs-x10-docx.html

see this link guys u can get the correct information about my problem...

[Brian H]

Thanks for the diagram.
I am thinking that Dave Houston may have provided some leads.
I also think the online UPS maybe have harmonics on the output or a filter to take the harmonics out. Killing the X10 signals.
The noise from the controller also would indicate some sort of problem with the output of the UPS.

I wounder if a heavy duty wired in X10 type filter on the UPS Output would help.
Would have to be a 250 volt 50 cycle one.

Do the modules and controller work with the Off Line UPS running on backup battery power?
Use care we have seen some output dirty AC on batteries and I actually burned up a TM751 while testing on an UPS using its batteries.

[satish]

thanxs for the replies
can u explain me about  heavy duty wired x10 at the output of the online ups...how to remove those harmonics created by the ups...actually we observed the output of the ups in fluke meter the harmonics are very low nearly 0.3%...