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[dave w]

...Smartmeter communication is known to morph into X10 commands that turn on and off X10 modules.

Actually, I strongly disagree. I doubt there are many instances where noise somehow is transformed into legitimate X10 commands.

My bad. I think this was an OGS (Old Geezer Syndrome) induced speculative construct of mine, based on feeble recollections of exchanges between you and Jeff in this long thread.
http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=22508.45

[JeffVolp]

I doubt there are many instances where noise somehow is transformed into legitimate X10 commands.

I agree with you that there aren't many.  However, they do happen.

The J_Status_Request is an easy pattern for noise to simulate because it is 1110101010101010101010.  If a noise source normally runs on alternate half cycles, it only has to slip in one extra noise burst when it is turned on to create that pattern.  And when I was developing the XTBM-Pro, I traced random M13 commands to a new LED monitor, which I had neglected to plug into the filtered powerstrip.  They were legitimate commands because I captured the decoded data strings on my digital storage scope.

I also have an appliance module in my office/lab set to P1 that I use for testing.  It never triggers during the day, but occasionally switches at night when the set of 3 CFLs in my ceiling light (on the same circuit) is switched on.  The noise from those three CFLs beats together and creates random data patterns that occasionally match valid X10 strings.

Jeff

[dhouston]

The reported middle-of-the-night events will almost always require two valid commands (address + on/off) and I think the odds against that are almost astronomical. For it to happen repeatedly with 2-3 different addresses, as the OP seems to be reporting, make it extremely improbable. For me, it doesn't make the usual suspect list.

[dmq400]

Wow, over my head now.

Can most of you agree that if I purchased a  newer version of my simple X-10 system it would have better ability thru (hopefully) newer/updated technology to work these 3 simple lights?

[dave w]

Wow, over my head now.

Can most of you agree that if I purchased a  newer version of my simple X-10 system it would have better ability thru (hopefully) newer/updated technology to work these 3 simple lights?

No, not if you are still talking X10 technology.
Z-Wave which is RF based, yes.

[dhouston]

Can most of you agree that if I purchased a  newer version of my simple X-10 system it would have better ability thru (hopefully) newer/updated technology to work these 3 simple lights?

No. X10 will continue to be plagued by noise sources and signal attenuators and there's little or nothing that can economically be done to change that. It dates to about 1976 and the basic power line control technology is still the same. Even very sophisticated (and expensive) frequency hopping power line control technology (Homeplug Command & Control) cannot compete with pure wireless control.

For a limited system such as yours, today, I would look at Z-Wave. In a year or two, it might be WiFi controlled LED lights. Only those with a sizable investment in X10 and old-timers who understand these issues should try to keep it going.

[JeffVolp]

No. X10 will continue to be plagued by noise sources and signal attenuators and there's little or nothing that can economically be done to change that.

Obviously, I can't agree with that statement.

Certainly, there are challenges to reliable X10 control.  But adding AGC to the newer modules is big step in the right direction.  Those of us who use Leviton switches with their "intellisense" AGC know how much better those switches work compared with the old X10 wall switches.

Jeff

[dmq400]

Hmmm, more conflicting advice.  On another note,  since I pulled the PAT01 out of the wall socket to read the numbers etc and then put it right back in the same outlet, after maybe 10 min, the lights have stayed OFF during the nite for the first time in maybe a month!   I'll keep my fingers crossed.

[Brian H]

Well for the most part. We are all end users like your self and are sharing from our personal experiences. So opinions will vary.

If you had an X10 test meter like an XTBM. Finding your problems causes may have been easier.

Keep the PAT01 in mind. I had an RR501 X10 version of the transceiver. Do strange things after many years of use. In my case I was able to rebuild its failing power supply and it was again reliable.

[dmq400]

Ok.  Thanks for the learning experience.  3 nites in a row now where everything seems to be working as before.  All it took (at this point) was taking the PAT01
out of the wall socket for a few min.

[dmq400]

So back to the same old problem. I spoke with Smart home in Ca. today and they tell me that CFL lights are NOT recommended in a house with an X10 system.  He claims that is my problem....in a nutshell,  end of story.  Especially dimmable ones   Any further opinions?

[dave w]

So back to the same old problem. I spoke with Smart home in Ca. today and they tell me that CFL lights are NOT recommended in a house with an X10 system.  He claims that is my problem....in a nutshell,  end of story.  Especially dimmable ones   Any further opinions?

CFLs make noise. They are an easy target. Sometimes their noise interferes with X10, sometimes not. I have some GE 13W and 27W CFLs and they do not generate noise in the same spectrum that X10 uses. They do not interfere with my X10 although I do have a high output repeater which helps if there is noise present.

This is first you mentioned CFLs. Do you have a lot?

It is rare (but not unheard of) that CFL noise will turn on or off X10 modules, which was your first complaint. The CFL noise is a block to X10 signals, so X10 modules either don't turn on when they should, or they don't turn off. The X10 command signal just doesn't get through.

It's an easy test. Turn on all your CFLs and see if X10 works throughout the house, or if any modules turn ON or OFF without being sent a command. If noise IS turning ON or OFF a module, it will likely be the very last module you sent a command to. 

[Brian H]

Not all CFLs make noise.
I have some that make no noise but are signal suckers. As the manufacturer puts a capacitor across the power line to kill the CFLs electronic noise. Also kills the X10 signals. Some CFLs are 100% fine. I disassembled one and the manufacturer actually spent a few extra cents to add a small coil on the Line input. To isolate the capacitors effect on the power line signals.

X10 and Smarthome modules with Local Sensing Current. Can cause CFLs to pulse when Off and sometimes that would trigger them back On.

I have some LED bulbs that also make power line noise or signal suck both X10 and Insteon power line signals. While others are completely fine.
Name brand LED bulbs where much better in my tests and a good part of my house is now LED bulbs.
But with a CFL that maybe a few dollars over a LED bulb that is in fifteen or more dollar range. CFLs can be attractive price wise.

[dhouston]

While there have been many reports of them blocking X10, I do not recall any reports of noisy CFLs causing random ONs similar to these. However, noise of significant amplitude may act in the same manner as spikes (see below). Are the three lights in question CFLs?

It is difficult to offer meaningful suggestions without adequate information. The presence of CFLs was not known before and we still have no clue as to what switches or modules are in use. The stick-a-switch sends radio signals to the PAT01 which then sends powerline signals to whatever switches or modules actually control the three lights.

Normally, it takes about 100ms for the radio signal and about 400mS for an Address plus ON or OFF signal from the PAT01. If you were experiencing longer delays it could be due to...

1. a weaker radio signal. The switch sends 5-6 copies of the signal and the PAT01 has AGC which can respond to a weaker signal, perhaps needing 2-3 copies before it can discern a valid signal. X10 RF signals from these switches are problematic to begin with and are easily disturbed by changes in the environment.

2. powerline noise causing the PAT01 to delay its transmission.

Random events are usually caused by spikes or brownouts. Spikes can come from motors, old-style magnetic fluorescent ballasts, and some smartmeters. Brownouts are brief voltage dips that cause the microcontrollers in the switches/modules to reset which almost always results in them turning on when off.

It is highly unlikely that the stick-a-switch or PAT01 are involved in the random ONs. The likely culprits are whatever switches or modules actually control these lights being acted on by spikes or brownouts. Since you mention the neighbors have a vacation home, I would look into whether your electric utility may be allowing power to dip a bit in the middle of the night.

[dave w]

While there have been many reports of them blocking X10, I do not recall any reports of noisy CFLs causing random ONs similar to these.

Check Reply # 21.