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[woodyl]

I installed a Home Depot Cree LED bulb (which is reported to be be X10 friendly) on a circuit controlled by a WS467 wall switch (old, not soft-start).

I noticed that the macros running on my CM15A were not working on this light, so I investigated.  So, here are the puzzling findings:

1.  Light is not controlled by the CM15A in ActiveHome Pro, either using macros or manually switching on and off.

2.  I have a CM11A hooked up to a Linux box using Heyu.  This is a powerline only controller, no RF.  This controller can turn the light on, but can't turn it off.

3.  I also have a CM19A hooked up to a Linux box using mochad.  This is an RF only controller.  This controller can reliably turn the light on and off.  It is relaying commands through the RR501 repeater.

4.  I used a Palmpad controller with a RR501 RF to powerline repeater.  The RR501 is on the same circuit with the CM19A and the CM15A.  This can reliably turn the light off and on.

So, to summarize, the powerline controllers do not control the light, but RF to powerline works fine.  Since the signal is ultimately being sent to the switch over the powerline in each case, I don't see why the RR501 is able to control it while the other devices don't.  When I put the incandescent bulb back in, all of the controllers work.

So, does anybody have any ideas about what's going on here?

[Brian H]

Marginal power line communications.
RR501 may have a slightly higher power line signal.
Also the CM15A by default will also transceive your HR12A Palm Pad unless you turned off its House Code in the Hardware Setup Menu.

Do you have any phase coupler or coupler repeater?
Do you have any filters on possible problem makers or have done any signal troubleshooting?

The On but not off could be the Cree is absorbing a small amount of power line signal when On and just taking the communications below reliable.
I didn't see any reduction in signal strength on my XTBM with a Cree LED bulb but it could have been slightly reduced.As I have an XTB-IIR and most of my outlets are above a 5 volt level.

http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm
http://www.act-remote.com/PCC/uncle.htm

[woodyl]

Marginal power line communications.
RR501 may have a slightly higher power line signal.

But it works ok with an incandescent bulb.  Shouldn't the powerline issue be independent of what's plugged into the fixture?

Also the CM15A by default will also transceive your HR12A Palm Pad unless you turned off its House Code in the Hardware Setup Menu.

I have RF turned off on the CM15A.

Do you have any phase coupler or coupler repeater?

Nope, but the same controllers work with incandescent bulbs and the RR501 is on the same circuit with the controllers, so I don't think it's a phase issue.

Do you have any filters on possible problem makers or have done any signal troubleshooting?

Again, if it's an issue with signal, wouldn't it also affect the same switch when using an incandescent bulb?

The On but not off could be the Cree is absorbing a small amount of power line signal when On and just taking the communications below reliable.
I didn't see any reduction in signal strength on my XTBM with a Cree LED bulb but it could have been slightly reduced.As I have an XTB-IIR and most of my outlets are above a 5 volt level.

Maybe, but it works with the RR501 and I haven't had any problems controlling anything else with these powerline controllers.

I'm still stumped and hoping somebody has something else I can try.

[Brian H]

Well then the Cree maybe making a small amount of noise or signal sucking. Enough to effect things.
Incadescent bulbs will not make noise or signal suck. Unless they are a very unique bulb. That maybe why the system works.

Do you have any phase coupling between the homes two incoming power lines?
Are any electronic devices on X10 type filters?

Temporarily disconnect devices that are known to sometimes cause X10 signal problems. To see if things change.

[dave w]

Maybe, but it works with the RR501 and I haven't had any problems controlling anything else with these powerline controllers.

I'm still stumped and hoping somebody has something else I can try.

I agree with Brian. It sounds like you have marginal strength X10 and the Cree may have some signal sucking going on. The RR501 has higher output than the CM15A. I'm sure it varies from unit to unit, but I have seen (and I think Brian supplied some of these figures) that the CM15A PLC output is around 3V and the RR501 is around 5V. Maybe it is time to look into a repeater/coupler.

Also you might try putting a 7W nightlight on the fixture with the Cree just to see what happens. The WS467 depends on leakage current through the filment in the incandescent load to power its internal electronics. The Cree may not be leaking as much current as a nichrome filament would, so the signal amp in the WS467 simply isn't amplifying as much. $0.02

[Brian H]

I found that the one 6 watt 40 watt equivalent Cree didn't work properly with an Older WS467 or WS12A. Two or more where fine.
One 9.5 watt 60 watt equivalent was fine.

I have no information on the 9 watt 5000K 60 watt equivalent Cree. Just the 9.5 watt and 6 watt 2700K Cree bulbs.

[dhouston]

RR501 outputs 10Vpp while CM11A outputs 6Vpp.

• http://davehouston.org/x10-sig.htm

[woodyl]

OK, to follow up, I changed out the WS467 for a XPDI3 module and now the Cree LED is controlled without a problem.  There are a couple of differences between the WS467 abd XPDI3.  The XPDI3 is a 3-wire module (it uses the neutral wire) and it has soft-start.

I would be interested in hearing which switch modules people have successfully used with LED bulbs.  I don't know if the critical factor is soft-start, modules that use a neutral wire, or something else.

[dave w]

I would be interested in hearing which switch modules people have successfully used with LED bulbs.  I don't know if the critical factor is soft-start, modules that use a neutral wire, or something else.

Any switch module (X10, Smarthome, etc) that uses the neutral line should have no problem powering a LED or CFL bulb. The reason is explained in the last paragraph of my June 02, 2013, 11:59:17 AM post. If the switch module is dimmable then (obviously) the LED or CFL bulb should be a dimmable model.

[Brian H]

Neutral power feed makes a big difference. As power is not supplied through the load.
Using a LED Bulb not made to be dimmed and most CFLs {dimmables are very rare}. On a dimmer is a no no.
Even at 100% On. The AC power is modified slightly. Enough to damage the bulb, the dimmer or both.
On and Off only switches with relays in them should work with both dimmable and non dimmable bulbs.
Some model bulbs may make noise or absorb power line signals. So trial tests or other user feedback is a help.

[woodyl]

Good points about the neutral wire.  I would still be interested in finding out if other switches which don't have a neutral wire will also work with LED bulbs.  We need a database of LED bulb and module combinations that work.

[Brian H]

The reports maybe highly subjective.
On my test stand both an older before soft start WS12A and WS467 worked fine with a Cree 9.5 watt LED bulb and your WS467 did not. Both findings are valid in my thoughts. My wiring is very short while yours is closer to a typical X10 installation. The outlet I used is close to my XTB-IIR so my X10 power line signal level was around 7.5 volts as measured by a XTBM. Many installations would have a much lower X10 power line signal level.

The same Cree bulb did not work with a two wire Home Settings HA20C ZWave wall switch.

May also depend on the exact model of the bulb. I have two Philips EnduraLED bulbs. Both are 12.5 watts. 800 lumen's. Model 12E26A60 is the original design and 12E26A60-1 is the newer hardware with less total LEDs in it but each is driven harder. In a LM465 Lamp Module each acted differently.

Since two wire dimmers steal power through the load. Unless proven other wise. I would say most Dimmable LED bulbs will not work with any X10 or other protocol two wire dimmers.

[dave w]

Good points about the neutral wire.  I would still be interested in finding out if other switches which don't have a neutral wire will also work with LED bulbs.  We need a database of LED bulb and module combinations that work.

FWIW I get CFL bulbs to work on a WS467 by putting a 7W night light in the circuit. The night light leaks enough current that the WS467 works normally. The same trick should work with an LED bulb. My lights are outdoor coach lamps large enough to put a two outlet socket adapter http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-1403-Outlet-Socket-Adapter/dp/B001F71O70/ref=pd_sxp_grid_pt_0_2 and a night light http://www.amazon.com/GE-52194-White-Shade-Incandescent/dp/B000BQK2G0/ref=lp_3736651_1_23?ie=UTF8&qid=1370993399&sr=1-23 in the fixture. Most medium to large table lamps will accomodate the hack also. I have not tried to replace the night light with a resistor. Maybe next week...

[woodyl]

FWIW I get CFL bulbs to work on a WS467 by putting a 7W night light in the circuit. The night light leaks enough current that the WS467 works normally. The same trick should work with an LED bulb. My lights are outdoor coach lamps large enough to put a two outlet socket adapter http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-1403-Outlet-Socket-Adapter/dp/B001F71O70/ref=pd_sxp_grid_pt_0_2 and a night light http://www.amazon.com/GE-52194-White-Shade-Incandescent/dp/B000BQK2G0/ref=lp_3736651_1_23?ie=UTF8&qid=1370993399&sr=1-23 in the fixture. Most medium to large table lamps will accomodate the hack also. I have not tried to replace the night light with a resistor. Maybe next week...

Some good ideas, especially the idea of using a resistor.  The socket adapter with 2 outlets is pretty big, though.  Maybe it would be possible to hack up a lamp base of some kind that would screw into the socket between the regular socket and the bulb.  The resistor could be installed in the adapter.  Here's an example of a medium-to-medium socket extender that might work:
http://www.greenelectricalsupply.com/e26-medium-base-socket-extenders.aspx

I'm not sure how you could safely install the resistor, though.  Probably somebody will have a better idea on how to do this.