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[EddieG]

Hi All,

I'm pleased to meet you.

I have a small room with four lamp modules installed and one MC260 controller.  When the controller in plugged into AC outlet 1, all four lamp modules respond.  When the same controller is plugged into AC outlet 2, only one of the lamp modules responds.  Switching controllers has no effect. 

Anybody seen this behavior before?  How to remedy it?

Thanks.

[bkenobi]

Without more knowledge of your power line configuration, my initial guess would be phases.  X10 communicates via PLC (power line carrier control).  In the US, most homes use 220VAC which has 2 110VAC legs.  When connecting an X10 device,  you must be sure that all components you want to communicate are on the same phase.  If you don't, the components on the other phase will not be accessible remotely.  If you want to use both phases, you must either couple them or use a separate controller for the second phase.  The easiest way to determine if this is the issue is to turn on a 220VAC appliance and try controlling your modules and then repeat with the appliance off.  If they all work with the 220VAC appliance on but not when off, you have a phase coupling issue.

Depending on the needs of your installation, there are solutions that are easy and cheap and others that are more reliable but more costly.  Search the forum for phase coupling and you will find around 1 million hits!  If you need more help, let us know.

[Brian H]

Welcome to the X10 forums.

Very common issue. Almost all of us have had power line signal issues. From phase coupling, power line noise makers and signal suckers.
You may find Jeff's great set of tutorials a big help.
http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm

You may also want to look at some of the information in the X10 Wiki.
http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Main_Page

My thoughts are outlet 1 is on the same phase as all four Lamp Modules receive a strong enough X10 power line command to be controlled. In outlet 2 most likely on the other phase of the incoming power and the marginal X10 power line signal is getting to the one Lamp Module.

You may also find outlet 1 and outlet 2 are on different circuit breakers. So that if a breaker is tripped the whole room would not be dark.

[EddieG]

Aha! Phase Coupling! It has the ring of truth for a number of reasons...   

I will test this by plugging the controller into the same branch as the lamp modules that fail.  I don't have any 220V equipment, so I can't try this.  I'll also do some reading of the resources named above.  I look forward to correcting this problem.

Thank you, gentlemen.

[dhouston]

Here's yet another resource...
https://www.laser.com/dhouston/coupling.html

[EddieG]

To test, I plugged a controller into the far side of the room, the side where the unresponsive lamp modules are.  Now the unresponsive modules work.  But, the modules that originally worked no longer do.  Based on this, I ordered a phase coupler.  It can't hurt.

Here's what I find curious.  This issue only came up recently.  Prior to this, all modules responded to all controllers all the time.  I mean, this system worked well for a decade or more.

Any ideas what might cause a functioning system to behave in this manner?  I haven't made any wiring changes in the house. 

Should this thread move to General Home Automation | Troubleshooting Automation Problems?

[Brian H]

The thread is in the section you mentioned already.

Things can change in a setup. Even if no physically things have been added; removed or moved to a new location.
Electronic devices can age and change. Sometimes starting to make power line noise or start absorbing more X10 power line signals.

If you don't have a phase coupler yet but are going to add one to the setup. It can't hurt and should help get the signals to the other phase of the setup. May or may not be enough depending on things like signal suckers or noise makers.

Have you had a chance to look at Jeff's Troubleshooting Tutorials yet?
http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm

[HA Dave]

.. I ordered a phase coupler.  It can't hurt.

Here's what I find curious.  This issue only came up recently.  Prior to this, all modules responded to all controllers all the time.  I mean, this system worked well for a decade or more.

That's interesting. My wife and I had bought a new Maytag (front loading) washer/dryer combo in 2000. Although a nice set (high dollar). After the washer had been repaired twice, and the dryer had begun squeaking, we replaced the set. That was more than a year ago... or 15 years from purchase.

I was here when the installer set-up the washer/dryer and was handed the passive phase coupler... as the installed didn't know what it was.

I know some people use these same passive phase couplers on a stove. But the same thought applies here. Were you using a (forgotten?) phase coupler that wasn't replaced after an appliance repair/replacement? Or have you had electrical box work done? i.e. already had a phase coupler that may be setting behind a new dryer or on top of you fuse/service box? 

[EddieG]

.. I ordered a phase coupler.  It can't hurt.

Here's what I find curious.  This issue only came up recently.  Prior to this, all modules responded to all controllers all the time.  I mean, this system worked well for a decade or more.

That's interesting. My wife and I had bought a new Maytag (front loading) washer/dryer combo in 2000. Although a nice set (high dollar). After the washer had been repaired twice, and the dryer had begun squeaking, we replaced the set. That was more than a year ago... or 15 years from purchase.

I was here when the installer set-up the washer/dryer and was handed the passive phase coupler... as the installed didn't know what it was.

I know some people use these same passive phase couplers on a stove. But the same thought applies here. Were you using a (forgotten?) phase coupler that wasn't replaced after an appliance repair/replacement? Or have you had electrical box work done? i.e. already had a phase coupler that may be setting behind a new dryer or on top of you fuse/service box?

There has never been a phase coupler in this house, Dave.  However, there are some new next-door neighbors whose time here coincides more or less with the problem behavior.  I've read some good reports about the XTB ANR unit by JVDE.  I might be seeing the introduction of a new nearby noise source.  Sound possible?

[bkenobi]

Also a possibility is your signal from one phase going outside to their house and passing from one phase to the other in their wiring before coming back to your house.  I'd say that's less likely because the signal degrades over distance.  Unless you live VERY close, it's more likely that you had marginal coupling before but when they moved in they added noise that is entering your home.  If that were the case, you may need to do more than just add a phase coupler.  The PZZ01 will filter out noise coming into the panel from the street side.  If they neighbor's noise is severe enough, you may need to either install a repeater (XTB-IIR would be my recommendation) or a whole house filter (PZZ01).

Don't order anything else until you try the passive coupler since you have it on the way.

[dhouston]

...there are some new next-door neighbors whose time here coincides more or less with the problem behavior.

There has been at least one case reported here wherein a neighbor's noisy CFL porch light interfered with a user's X10 system so it is within the realm of possibility that your new neighbor is the source of your problem.
http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=29392.msg164881#msg164881

[EddieG]

Also a possibility is your signal from one phase going outside to their house and passing from one phase to the other in their wiring before coming back to your house.  I'd say that's less likely because the signal degrades over distance.  Unless you live VERY close, it's more likely that you had marginal coupling before but when they moved in they added noise that is entering your home.  If that were the case, you may need to do more than just add a phase coupler.  The PZZ01 will filter out noise coming into the panel from the street side.  If they neighbor's noise is severe enough, you may need to either install a repeater (XTB-IIR would be my recommendation) or a whole house filter (PZZ01).

Don't order anything else until you try the passive coupler since you have it on the way.

Eureka.

I decided to get noise out of the way, since it is the easiest and cheapest to deal with.  I had a good read of Jeff Volp's paper on noise.  Computers, eh?  I dug a 1626-10 filter out of my parts box and plugged the computer nearest the misbehaving modules into it.  It was as if I said "sesame." All modules and controllers now work like champs.    

Hats off to Jeff Volp!  And thanks to all! 

Ed
..........

[bkenobi]

Computers, especially those behind a UPS, are really bad for X10.  I have filters on all my computer equipment, all UPS's, my kitchen fridge, and the washing machine.  There are other places that cause noise, but fixing these made the system nearly perfect.

[Brian H]

Computers, especially those behind a UPS, are really bad for X10.  I have filters on all my computer equipment, all UPS's, my kitchen fridge, and the washing machine.  There are other places that cause noise, but fixing these made the system nearly perfect.

You should not have to have an X10 filter on a computer. If it is behind an UPS and the UPS AC input is on a filter.

Yes the new appliances with  electronic controls can also wreck X10 communications as you have found out.

[EddieG]

Computers, especially those behind a UPS, are really bad for X10.  I have filters on all my computer equipment, all UPS's, my kitchen fridge, and the washing machine.  There are other places that cause noise, but fixing these made the system nearly perfect.

In my case, the computer I filtered (upstairs) does not have a UPS.  It is (was) plugged directly into the outlet.  Unfathomably, it made no difference if the computer was turned on or not, the module behavior was the same.  Like the neighbors, it arrived a year or so ago, about when the problems began.

I have another computer elsewhere in the house (downstairs) that IS behind a UPS, and has no filter.  It's been there for years.  As far as I can tell it has never caused any X10 noise problems.  This machine happens to be on a dedicated line direct to the breaker panel.  That may be a factor.

I've had X10 in the house since 1985, and a computer since 1990, and I've never seen X10 behave like this before.  I don't entirely understand it, but I know more now than I did two weeks ago.  And, I've got more spare parts now than I had before.    Best of all, everything works again.