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[dhouston]

How difficult would it be to refactor a TIP10RF for 310mhz use. Would it be expensive to retrofit.

Miniturization and Surface Mount Technology make DIY rework difficult these days. As I recall, the SAW resonator was about 5mm x 5mm with contacts under the package. It would require a hot air gun with a vacuum tip and even then there was a risk of dislodging nearby components. Although I had the necessay tools, I decided it was too risky. It was obviously outside the skillset of most X10 users. Cost would have been minimal - just the replacement SAW resonator.
For those in US/Canada wanting WiFi control of X10, it was easy to convert RF transceivers (TM751, RR501, etc.) to 433.92MHz for use with a TIP10RF. That just required installing a through-hole a 433.92MHz resonator into existing solderpads.

It would have been simple to manufature a 310MHz version but would have required FCC testing.

[Tuicemen]

I also had suggested a NA version of the TIP10RF in the early stages of the WM100 development to Authinx.
Their idea was always a PLC transmitter and eventually add RF to that once the PLC end was worked out.

The WM100 is no where near what Authinix envisioned for the first version WMs.
The slow app development of this thing is what most users are upset about. (bugs fixes and option adds)
The limitations of the hardware is next on the list (32 device, no extended commands and  RF)

[petera]

I also had suggested a NA version of the TIP10RF in the early stages of the WM100 development to Authinx.
Their idea was always a PLC transmitter and eventually add RF to that once the PLC end was worked out.

The WM100 is no where near what Authinix envisioned for the first version WMs.
The slow app development of this thing is what most users are upset about. (bugs fixes and option adds)
The limitations of the hardware is next on the list (32 device, no extended commands and  RF)

I think at this stage the WM100 is going as far as it's Oriental masters want it to go. Authinx it appears are now in a bind.

How could anyone seriously ignore an already available concept like the TIP10RF and not take advantage of it with a minor modification as you've explained @dhoustan is beyond me.

Maybe at this stage they'd be a little more receptive to your idea after what they've been through. I wonder would it be possible for them to this in parallel with a seperate manufacturer.

[Knightrider]

I really think Authinex was trying to build a quality product and not cobble something together which would require a pipeline of existing products.

The downfall was to use the manufacturer they did and then form a partnership on the product.

That 50-50 deal may have worked with the old X10/PICO/BSR/Radio Shack/Magnavox/etc, but the times have changed.

[dhouston]

How could anyone seriously ignore an already available concept like the TIP10RF and not take advantage of it with a minor modification as you've explained @dhoustan is beyond me.

It never really reached the point where I could explain it - they just never responded to my initial email.

Maybe at this stage they'd be a little more receptive to your idea after what they've been through. I wonder would it be possible for them to this in parallel with a seperate manufacturer.

Marmitek has dropped its X10 products and Haibrain, who took on the line, is now out of business so I'm not sure there is anyone to work with. However, a 310MHz TIP10RF paired with the new PAT03 would certainly be a winner.
https://www.x10.com/pat03.html

[JeffVolp]

310MHz TIP10RF paired with the new PAT03 would certainly be a winner.

While that addresses the local control issue we have with the WM100, is doesn't give us an actual controller that could replace the CM15A.

Jeff

[dhouston]

310MHz TIP10RF paired with the new PAT03 would certainly be a winner.

While that addresses the local control issue we have with the WM100, is doesn't give us an actual controller that could replace the CM15A.

I agree - which is why I'd like to see your XTB-232 paired with a $2 ESP8266 module w/4MB flash + an EEPROM IC + a PIC supervisor.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Official-DOIT-ESP-F-Serial-Wireless-WiFi-Transmission-Module-Fully-Compatible-with-ESP8266/32799357027.html?spm=2114.search0104.3.9.9cac5cb5U2SO9W&transAbTest=ae803_4&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0%2Csearchweb201602_2_10065_10068_10130_10547_10546_10059_10884_10548_315_10545_10887_10696_100031_10084_531_10083_10103_10618_10307_449%2Csearchweb201603_60%2CppcSwitch_0&algo_pvid=3d64ed3c-a298-4979-a158-327804184de6&priceBeautifyAB=0&algo_expid=3d64ed3c-a298-4979-a158-327804184de6-1

[dhouston]

Here's a link to the manual for the ESP-F chip.
https://github.com/SmartArduino/ESP/blob/master/UserManualForESP-F_doitV1.pdf

Note the built-in IR. This sends/receives NEC protocol. Hmmm - X10 uses that protocol for RF.

[JeffVolp]

While that addresses the local control issue we have with the WM100, is doesn't give us an actual controller that could replace the CM15A.

I agree - which is why I'd like to see your XTB-232 paired with a $2 ESP8266 module w/4MB flash + an EEPROM IC + a PIC supervisor.

Whatever is added has to be a daughter board because there is no way to even squeeze in the smallest ESP8266 on the current PCB.  I looked at integrating the Wemos mini last night.  The advantage of that is the real time clock could be stacked with it.

There has to be some 5V - 3.3V interfaces - either between the Wemos mini and the PIC or between a 3.3V PIC and the circuitry it drives.  I'm not sure everything would fit on the board.  Some components might have to be surface mount on the underside.  Or perhaps the whole thing could be converted to surface mount for robotic assembly, but I wouldn't do any more than a few prototypes.

I'm not sure what you meant about a PIC supervisor.  I thought the Wemos mini would be the controller, and the existing PIC would provide the serial to X10 PLC conversion.  The RTC could include the microSD.  What else is needed?

Jeff

[dhouston]

The ESP8266 needs to monitor the WiFi which requires a bit of fancy footwork if it's also overseeing other tasks (e.g. RF). It's probably adequate on its own here but adding the PIC & EEPROM is kinda the ultimate approach.

Another advantage of the WeMos is the USB-serial adapter which might be used for updates to the program and timers/macros.

One major disadvantage of using the flash for timers/macros is you've killed a +$100 piece of hardware if you should wear out the flash. The WeMos with 16MB flash costs about the same as the 4MB model. If you use microSD, it would need a way to change cards without disassembly of the unit.

I have an RTC shield. I might play around with it after I finish my RF proof-of-concept for which I'm awaiting some Protoboard shields.

For the RTC, I prefer the ST M41T81S IC - same pinout,etc. but it records the time when power is lost making it simple to figure out a power outage length.

P.S. The ESP8266 pins have over voltage protection although I'm unsure of the details.

[dhouston]

Here's where I saw the bit about the ESP8266 pins being protected...
https://hackaday.io/page/2024-esp8266-is-5v-tolerant-after-all

All digital IO pins are protected from over-voltage with a snap-back circuit connected between the pad and ground. The snap back voltage is typically about 6V, and the holding voltage is 5.8V. This provides protection from over-voltages and ESD. The output devices are also protected from reversed voltages with diodes.

[JeffVolp]

Here's where I saw the bit about the ESP8266 pins being protected...

So we may only need resistors on the two digital inputs - serial in and ring indicator.  Using the TTL buffer input we can do a direct connect to the serial output too.  So that saves a few components.  I worked on this again today.  The main problem is squeezing in the electrolytics.  The low profile one is too high for a double stack with the Wemos and RTC over it.  So I need to move the PIC underneath the Wimos to free up room for taller electrolytics.

To put the antenna at the top of the case the USB port will not be accessible.  I don't see a problem with the RTC microSD not being accessible without opening the case as that is likely to last the life of the product.  And if it wears out, it is really not much more difficult than replacing a cellphone battery.

Bottom line is the Wimos mini looks feasible if we can do the job with just a double stack and nothing needed from the existing XTB-232 other than the serial connection and power.

Jeff

[dhouston]

I think we can ignore RI. I don't think it is even passed on via WiFi.
http://www.thefullwiki.org/Ring_Indicator

[JeffVolp]

I think we can ignore RI. I don't think it is even passed on via WiFi.

That is used as a "wake-up" to indicate a X10 message was received and ready for transfer to the computer.  So it could be used as an interrupt for the Wemos to divert its attention.  I understand it is not sent out via WiFi.

Jeff

[dhouston]

I'm not sure it's needed with the ESP8266 but, if its only cost is one resistor, I guess planning for it is worthwhile.