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[smatofu]

[battery longevity]

I have my outdoor motion sensors powered by rechargeable batteries and small solar panels. Works great!

[bkenobi]

I'm not a battery expert and have not used rechargeable batteries (either alkaline, ni-cad, or lithium AA/AAA) recently.  Don't these still corrode if used with a solar cell?  I'm assuming so, which means that they would need to be checked periodically for leaking even if they don't discharge completely.  My MS16A's that have failed were due to either weather (unsealed and water intrusion, sealed but lens weathered/cracked resulting in water intrusion) or batteries (corroded the internals sufficiently that repair was not feasible).

[madbrain]

If the battery-powered design of the X10 motion sensors is the only thing holding you back, I'm sure it's easy enough to open them up, and wire in a low-voltage power supply to the battery contacts.

It's not the only thing. I would ideally like something that fits in the space of a wall mounted switch, like XPS3/XPS4 do. The MS16A is the wrong form factor.

[bkenobi]

Have you considered just using a motion sensor switch?  They won't communicate, but the ones I've tried are pretty good and once installed, they just work without issue.  I picked up a couple on deep clearance just for the heck of it but haven't needed them yet.  I thought about using them in my laundry room but since the switch is a 3-way that one wouldn't have worked.  Someday...

[madbrain]

Have you considered just using a motion sensor switch?  They won't communicate, but the ones I've tried are pretty good and once installed, they just work without issue.  I picked up a couple on deep clearance just for the heck of it but haven't needed them yet.  I thought about using them in my laundry room but since the switch is a 3-way that one wouldn't have worked.  Someday...

Leviton motion sensor switches is what I have in most of the house. They work fine in most situations. They are not controllable by X10 protocol, however. And they can only control the load that's directly attached to them.

In my home theater, I want to be able to turn the ceiling lights on/off with my infrared remote. Thus, I replaced the motion sensor switches with the XPS3 a while back. But the lights don't turn themselves off automatically anymore since that time. For my office ceiling light, the situation is similar. The original switch was obstructed by a door. I replaced it with an XPS3. I control it with an X10 RF remote outside the room, along with X10 transceiver. Inside the room, one of the computers has CM17A and I use ActiveHome Vista to turn the lights on/off. But again, the light won't turn itself off automatically, and is often forgotten. In this case, a regular motion sensor wouldn't work due to the location behind the door/furniture. I would need the motion sensor to be in a different area than where the load is. An MS16A on my desk might work, assuming I get the proper software to handle this combo of MS16A/XPS3 and act as a vacancy sensor. I have been exploring HomeGenie as you know, but been very frustrated with it and the many bugs I have run into, and its obscure user interface and fairly limited documentation.

[bkenobi]

Another thing worth considering is using the Leveton switches you are used to to trigger an X10 command (basically what I did with my Heath/Zenith sensor.  if you install an AC relay inside the box, you can use the output to trigger any dry contact sensor (PowerFlash, RPi GPIO, X10 window/door sensor, etc).  I don't know how you would have to deal with installing low voltage and AC in the same box, but there must be a solution that would pass code (if you care).  If there were some wall switch motion sensor that was connected it would be easier, but I don't see those motion sensors as completely incompatible.  The one issue would be that most motion sensors require some load to work so you may have to have a small bulb or resistor.  Anyway, just some thoughts.

[smatofu]

... Don't these still corrode if used with a solar cell?  I'm assuming so, which means that they would need to be checked periodically for leaking even if they don't discharge completely.  ...

A good quality rechargeable should last a few years. They don't overheat in this application and they only go through small charges/discharges.

[madbrain]

Another thing worth considering is using the Leveton switches you are used to to trigger an X10 command (basically what I did with my Heath/Zenith sensor.  if you install an AC relay inside the box, you can use the output to trigger any dry contact sensor (PowerFlash, RPi GPIO, X10 window/door sensor, etc).  I don't know how you would have to deal with installing low voltage and AC in the same box, but there must be a solution that would pass code (if you care).  If there were some wall switch motion sensor that was connected it would be easier, but I don't see those motion sensors as completely incompatible.  The one issue would be that most motion sensors require some load to work so you may have to have a small bulb or resistor.  Anyway, just some thoughts.

Thanks. I don't think I want to mess with adding low voltage wiring. Just too expensive to open and close walls. For some of my use cases, things are not even in the same room. For example, a motion sensor in bathrooms to turn on the circulation pump, and then turn it back off. In that case, that's not on vacancy sensor, it's a more traditional motion sensor that turns things on and off. But the load isn't going to be in the same room still.

I'm really souring on X10 to be honest, given the unreliability of distant signals. It sort of works if you send it 4 - 5 times. But it's a bit of a crap shoot. I don't think I'll be adding much more hardwired X10 gear, if any. I do have a number of existing XPS / XPS4 switches though, and still have a number of X10 plug-in modules, for which a remote motion sensor might be useful.

This may be a bit off-topic here, but what sort of hardware solution would one use in a non-X10 environment ? I see some Kasa light switches for example, that work over Wifi. While I don't love Wifi, it should still be more reliable than X10 in my home. It's much less costly than running Ethernet. Also, a lot of IoT devices only support Wifi, not Ethernet. I don't see a Kasa motion sensor, though. There is a Kasa motion light switch, but that's not what I'm after here for the circulation pump case. Are there other brands/types of IoT motion sensors that could be used as remotes ? Obviously this requires mixing/matching devices of different brands/types, and that gets very tricky for devices that are not open (which is most, sadly). Only open-source software can really help with that case.

I just spent a good chunk of my week-end measuring a few dozen plug-in loads with a Kill-a-watt. Only about 200 loads in the house left to check ! So far, I found one 60W incandescent bulb in a plug-in lamp. Also found 5 subwoofers that consume about 10 watts in idle (auto) mode, ie. 50 watts of vampire power. I wouldn't have thought it would be that much. In my home theater, which has a sub in each corner, I put X10 modules on each of the rear subs. Programmed the ARRX18G remote with RemoteMaster to send the A4 code to the IR543 to turn those on/off in macros. Seems to work OK. The relays in the modules are very loud, though, that can't be good for the sub amps. For the 2 front subs, I plugged them into the IoT relay : https://www.amazon.com/Iot-Relay-Enclosed-High-Power-Raspberry/dp/B00WV7GMA2 . This takes 12V out from my main receiver. I was already using this to turn on the secondary receiver that is needed for Atmos channels 10/11. That relay is much quieter than anything X10 ever made. Really can't hear it. And no need to change any remote control macros. For the 5th sub, the one in my guest room, I haven't found a good solution yet. The Marantz NR1603 receiver in that room doesn't have a 12V trigger out, so can't use an IoT relay there. I could use an X10 plug-in module on the sub, but would have to purchase another IR543 for that room. Looks like they are easy enough to get on Ebay. Would have have to program the ARRX18G in that room too (I have 7 ARRX18G in the house...). Still hate the sound of the X10 plug-in relay, though. The ARRX18G has RF capability also, but not sure if there are any plug-in modules that can accept a signal directly from it. This would be more basic stuff, not IoT. I suppose a TM751 transceiver would probably work, without an IR543, if there is just one load (sub), but there is still the X10 relay sound issue.

[bkenobi]

Thanks. I don't think I want to mess with adding low voltage wiring. Just too expensive to open and close walls. For some of my use cases, things are not even in the same room. For example, a motion sensor in bathrooms to turn on the circulation pump, and then turn it back off. In that case, that's not on vacancy sensor, it's a more traditional motion sensor that turns things on and off. But the load isn't going to be in the same room still.

The whole point of these modules is that you don't have to wire them to each other.  You have a module here and another there with a HA server that can control the activity.  With X10, you have a sensor in one location that triggers and the HA software decides what to do which then sends a signal to the other module to turn on/off.  If you have a vacancy sensor, it triggers on activity and then your HG would run code to turn things on/off which would send a command to your circulation pump at the right times.  There is no need to run wiring behind all of the walls.  The low voltage wiring I suggested was to connect your motion sensor to something that could transmit the open/closed state of the relay.  You could run a pair of wires all the way back to your RPi or you could use anything else that can send a signal too (PowerFlash module, modified window/door sensor, another brand switch, perhaps some kind of ESP8266/arduino based device, etc).  Some of those will even fit inside the box without modification (thinking something like the shelly).

I'm really souring on X10 to be honest, given the unreliability of distant signals. It sort of works if you send it 4 - 5 times. But it's a bit of a crap shoot. I don't think I'll be adding much more hardwired X10 gear, if any. I do have a number of existing XPS / XPS4 switches though, and still have a number of X10 plug-in modules, for which a remote motion sensor might be useful.

There are lots of options in automation to pick from these days.  Many people who have tried X10 walk away for different reasons.  Many of those are either lack of understanding of the protocol or failure to work on known issues that can/will pop up and can be resolved.  I know you have been directed to the X10 feng shui thread that dave wrote and probably the one that Jeff wrote too.  I'd recommend reviewing it to understand how phases, wire run length, signal suckers/generators, etc can have an affect on your system and how a few simple steps can reduce/eliminate all issues. 

My home is 6000ft2 including a large unfinished basement and I have a detached shop.  When I moved in it had some X10 that was working ok.  Well, it did until I hooked up all of my gear.  Then it was terrible.  After working through the issues, I have a system that has worked very reliably for over a decade with very minimal hardware modification.  After adding noise filters to key circuits/devices and installing an XTB-IIR I've been very happy overall.

It's your choice what you want to roll with, but X10 can be very reliable if you put in the effort to correct the common road blocks.

https://www.laser.com/dhouston/X10_feng_shui.html
https://jvde.us/xtb-iir/

[brobin]

In a recent thread about IR bridges I mentioned that I've been trying out YoLink products which has a learning IR device.  They also have very small (2.5" diameter) motion detectors, mini-plugs, 5 load powerstrips and dry contact relay devices, among others including one that has a finger that will reach out and press a button!  With motion detectors in bathrooms your circulation pump could be turned on with a mini-plug or dry contact module.  I haven't purchased a mini-plug yet but I can tell you that the relay module click is barely audible.   

The nice thing about YoLink devices, in addition to the low cost, is that regardless of the number of devices, the hub uses just a single IP address from your router.  All the other devices communicate using the very robust LoRa RF protocol which I've found to work everywhere inside and outside my 2 story grouted and rebarred concrete block home, yard and dock. The app enables the automation between the devices and there's also Alexa/GH and IFTTT if you use those.  Through the Alexa app I even have the YoLink skill talking to the Smartenit skill to operate X10 devices.

All of my X10 devices work with 99.9% reliability thanks to Jeff's XTB-IIR+ and a few filters so my only interest is in the sensors at this point.

One question though.  Doesn't turning off the circulation pump defeat the purpose of having instant hot water (if that's what you're using it for)?  When we're out the pump is off - as well as the water for that matter - but otherwise it runs 24/7 if we're home.  If it were on a motion detector wouldn't it  take almost as much time to get hot water as it would without one?  The Grundfos pump we have draws 25 watts which costs less than $30/year to run 24/7 and is so quiet I have to touch it to confirm it's running so I've never thought about turning it off when home.  I also think that running it may use less heating resources since warm water is returned to the tank instead of the cold water water sitting in the line.  All in all I'm not sure there'd be any noticeable cost benefit to not leaving it running.

[madbrain]

In a recent thread about IR bridges I mentioned that I've been trying out YoLink products which has a learning IR device.  They also have very small (2.5" diameter) motion detectors, mini-plugs, 5 load powerstrips and dry contact relay devices, among others including one that has a finger that will reach out and press a button!  With motion detectors in bathrooms your circulation pump could be turned on with a mini-plug or dry contact module.  I haven't purchased a mini-plug yet but I can tell you that the relay module click is barely audible.   

The nice thing about YoLink devices, in addition to the low cost, is that regardless of the number of devices, the hub uses just a single IP address from your router.  All the other devices communicate using the very robust LoRa RF protocol which I've found to work everywhere inside and outside my 2 story grouted and rebarred concrete block home, yard and dock. The app enables the automation between the devices and there's also Alexa/GH and IFTTT if you use those.  Through the Alexa app I even have the YoLink skill talking to the Smartenit skill to operate X10 devices.

Thanks, I'm definitely going to look into it.

All of my X10 devices work with 99.9% reliability thanks to Jeff's XTB-IIR+ and a few filters so my only interest is in the sensors at this point.

Curious which software package you use. HomeGenie ? And how many filters is "a few" ?
I haven't counted all the loads in my home yet - I'm in the process of doing so, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are over 300 plug-in devices, and 20 with dedicated breakers. I have far more filters than the number of X10 devices I use. Usually they are in the room where the X10 devices are. But not always.

I'm at nowhere near 99.9% system reliability unfortunately. I couldn't put a number to it. In some rooms, like my office and home theater, they work well enough, probably over 95%, maybe more. But when the controller is far away from the devices, things start to fail. Usually, everything fine the day I test things. But the day I actually need to use them, that's when they fail. For example, earlier tonight, lights on my rear patio and hot tub on the deck. I'm not sure how much is problems with X10 powerline, and how much is browser bugs and/or HomeGenie bugs. I use Firefox on Android with the web interface. Sometimes I press the "On" button, and there is no feedback in the UI, and unsurprisingly, nothing happens. I can press things 5-10 times in a row, and still zero feedback in UI. I thought this might be down to tiny and/or wet fingers, but I was just able to reproduce it right now in my office. Even zooming in on the web UI to make the button very large, things still didn't work.
There was a huge lag, in the order of tens of seconds, or even minutes. It eventually worked. Perhaps a Raspberry Pi 3B+ isn't fast enough to run HomeGenie. Or maybe I need better software. I think it's fair to say there is more than one problem at stake.

One question though.  Doesn't turning off the circulation pump defeat the purpose of having instant hot water (if that's what you're using it for)?  When we're out the pump is off - as well as the water for that matter - but otherwise it runs 24/7 if we're home.  If it were on a motion detector wouldn't it  take almost as much time to get hot water as it would without one?  The Grundfos pump we have draws 25 watts which costs less than $30/year to run 24/7 and is so quiet I have to touch it to confirm it's running so I've never thought about turning it off when home.  I also think that running it may use less heating resources since warm water is returned to the tank instead of the cold water water sitting in the line.  All in all I'm not sure there'd be any noticeable cost benefit to not leaving it running.

I couldn't care less about instant hot water. I'm running into a very odd plumbing situation where hot water doesn't get to fixtures reliably. Same problem on both water heaters. One of them has a circulation pump, and turning on that pump fixes the problem. Turning it off makes the water drop temperature instantly The second water heater has no pump, and problem is unresolved to this day. I have been pulling my hair out over it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Plumbing/comments/sn40rc/hot_water_circulation_problem/
Had the nth plumber come earlier tonight who said he has never seen anything like this and has no clue what the problem is.

The pump I have uses 80 watts. It's hardwired to an XPS4, but not on a dedicated breaker. I measured the load with my Rainforest Eagle, that gave me a realtime reading of the whole house meter, with and without the pump. 80 watts is 700 kWh per year. That's a bit over $200/year around here in California. Definitely real money. And I can hear it from nearly every room inside my 4700 sq ft house. But particularly in my home theater which is adjacent to the utility room where the pump is. I would like to rip out the pump altogether, but that would mean no longer being able to take showers, wash clothes, etc.  A second pump might be needed to fix the issue with the second water heater, and I really hate the thought of that. That would mean no longer being able to make decent recordings of my harpsichords - a pump in the garage would be undoubtedly be picked up by my microphones in the music room.

Honestly, we are getting far away from the smarthome discussion here, but if you have any insight on the plumbing situation, I would be most welcome.

[brobin]

Curious which software package you use. HomeGenie ? And how many filters is "a few" ?

     I'm using a JDS Stargate controller which, sadly, is no longer in production. With the XTB-IIR+ in place I only use filters on the UPS units for the PC's and on the laser printers (4 total). 

I'm at nowhere near 99.9% system reliability unfortunately.

If you don't have an XTB-IIR installed buy one while you still can.  Jeff no longer makes them and has limited remaining stock.


I couldn't care less about instant hot water. I'm running into a very odd plumbing situation where hot water doesn't get to fixtures reliably. Same problem on both water heaters. One of them has a circulation pump, and turning on that pump fixes the problem. Turning it off makes the water drop temperature instantly The second water heater has no pump, and problem is unresolved to this day. I have been pulling my hair out over it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Plumbing/comments/sn40rc/hot_water_circulation_problem/
Had the nth plumber come earlier tonight who said he has never seen anything like this and has no clue what the problem is.

I read your Reddit post and it appears to me that you may have several issues.  I'm not a plumber but I do have experience building homes and solving plumbing issues.  One thing you mention is that you're trying to fill a 95 gallon tub from a 75 gallon heater and maintain a comfortable temperature.  You can't.  Even if you start with 75 gallons of 130F water as soon as you turn on the tap and start using that water you have cold water rushing in to the heater to replace the hot water.  The cold mixes with the hot and the temperature starts dropping.  The typical recovery rate on a gas heater is 20 minutes or longer.  The math just doesn't work to do what you want to do.  The best (really only) solution is to replace that troublesome heater with a tankless flash heater.  The heater fires up only when you turn on the water and can give you an unlimited supply of 130F water to fill your tub.  The heater only burns gas when the water is running so you're not paying to heat a 75 gallon tank 24/7 which will save you enough on your gas bill to pay for the new heater.  I'd do the same for WH#1 as well. 

As for the issue with the circulation pump, it sounds like you may not have a dedicated return line but may have a sensor valve installed underneath a sink at farthest point from the heater.  If that valve is installed backwards or is malfunctioning you would have the issues you describe. Look for something like this: https://besthotwaterrecirculators.com/how-do-sensor-valves-work/ and
http://waterheatertimer.org/will-recirculation-system-work-with-tankless.html
 

[madbrain]

If you don't have an XTB-IIR installed buy one while you still can.  Jeff no longer makes them and has limited remaining stock.

I know. I'm still thinking about it. Not sure it's worth it given all the plug-in devices that cause issues. I believe I would still need many plug-in filters.

I read your Reddit post and it appears to me that you may have several issues.  I'm not a plumber but I do have experience building homes and solving plumbing issues.  One thing you mention is that you're trying to fill a 95 gallon tub from a 75 gallon heater and maintain a comfortable temperature.  You can't.  Even if you start with 75 gallons of 130F water as soon as you turn on the tap and start using that water you have cold water rushing in to the heater to replace the hot water.  The cold mixes with the hot and the temperature starts dropping.  The typical recovery rate on a gas heater is 20 minutes or longer.  The math just doesn't work to do what you want to do.  The best (really only) solution is to replace that troublesome heater with a tankless flash heater.  The heater fires up only when you turn on the water and can give you an unlimited supply of 130F water to fill your tub.  The heater only burns gas when the water is running so you're not paying to heat a 75 gallon tank 24/7 which will save you enough on your gas bill to pay for the new heater.  I'd do the same for WH#1 as well. 

The temperature of the hot water in each tank water heater is 135F. That's much too high for a bath (or shower). I don't actually want to fill the 95 gallon bathtub with 135 degree water. I was merely testing the temperature that comes out of the hot water faucet. A more reasonable target temperature for showering and bathing for me is 100-105. I would normally want to fill up the bathtub with water around 110-115F, ie. a mix of cold and hot water, since the bathtub takes about 20 minutes to fill up, and the temperature of the water will decrease during that time, but I don't want it to decrease below 100-105 by the time it is full.

I'm aware that the cold water mixes into the water heater when you start to draw hot water from it, but there is a dip tube in the water heater, so cold water mixes from the bottom, and hot water rises, thus the temperature at the top outlet shouldn't significantly drop immediately. A few degrees, sure. But not 30 - 50 degrees in minutes. The flow from the hot water faucet in each bathtub is 5gpm. I have seen the temp drop from 130 to 85 in just 3 minutes from WH#1 with the pump off, for example. That's drawing just 15 gallons from WH#1, which is 50 gallons. Cold water around right now is around 55F. Even if the cold water mixed instantly with all the hot water in the entire tank, the temperature would be (15 x 55 + 35 x 135) / 50 = 111F. There is no way it should drop as low as 85F. Unless the dip tube in the water heater was broken, the only explanation for it dropping that low is that cold water supply is getting into the hot water faucet somehow, not coming directly from the water heater.

Certainly, I used to be able to fill up the 95 gallon bathtub hot enough before last october, with the same size (and model) of 75 gallon water heater, and now I can't.
And the problem isn't just with the bathtub. It's with the shower also. The temperature drops significantly very quickly, sometimes within just a couple minutes, even after not using hot water all night. This is not normal. My mother had to get out of the shower within 3 minutes the day I left the pump off because the water became too cold.
None of these were issues during the period 2010-2019, with either water heater, in any of the 4 bathrooms. I still had to issue after water heater #1 as replaced in 2020, and circulation pump was added to it. When WH#2 was replaced in 2021, I started having issues with from the first day.

As for the issue with the circulation pump, it sounds like you may not have a dedicated return line but may have a sensor valve installed underneath a sink at farthest point from the heater.  If that valve is installed backwards or is malfunctioning you would have the issues you describe. Look for something like this: https://besthotwaterrecirculators.com/how-do-sensor-valves-work/ and
http://waterheatertimer.org/will-recirculation-system-work-with-tankless.html

I believe there is a dedicated return line - please see pics from WH#1 with the pump :
https://i.imgur.com/ZaxHnWK.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/8mn6sUN.jpg

I don't believe I have a sensor valve anywhere else. When the plumber replaced WH#1 in October 2020, he only worked in the utility room where it is located. He didn't modify the plumbing in any other room. All he did was replace the water heater, and put a new circulation pump, because the old one was not working.

[JeffVolp]

If you don't have an XTB-IIR installed buy one while you still can.  Jeff no longer makes them and has limited remaining stock.

Sorry, they are all gone now, including the refurbished units.  The plug-in XTBR will remain available for now.

I'm aware that the cold water mixes into the water heater when you start to draw hot water from it, but there is a dip tube in the water heater, so cold water mixes from the bottom, and hot water rises, thus the temperature at the top outlet shouldn't significantly drop immediately. A few degrees, sure. But not 30 - 50 degrees in minutes. The flow from the hot water faucet in each bathtub is 5gpm. I have seen the temp drop from 130 to 85 in just 3 minutes from WH#1 with the pump off, for example.

You have a complete loop without a one-way valve.  So without the pump running, you draw water from both the hot and cold return.  That causes the quick drop in temperature as the hot and cold mix at the faucet.  If you don't want to run the pump whenever hot water is being drawn, you need a one-way valve in the return to block the cold water from mixing with the hot at the faucet.

Jeff

[brobin]

I believe there is a dedicated return line - please see pics from WH#1 with the pump :
https://i.imgur.com/ZaxHnWK.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/8mn6sUN.jpg

I don't believe I have a sensor valve anywhere else. When the plumber replaced WH#1 in October 2020, he only worked in the utility room where it is located. He didn't modify the plumbing in any other room. All he did was replace the water heater, and put a new circulation pump, because the old one was not working.

Looking at those photos I think Jeff is right.  I also think the recirc pump is plumbed in wrong but the photos don't reveal what's behind the exhaust stack.  I don't see what's below which is what I'd expect with the recirc line being pumped to the cold water input rather than to the hot: