Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[roger1818]

I'm a bit rusty on my electronic theory. How do blocks and filters work? Are they one way. i.e. Do filters/blocks in one direction? If so what happens if you reverse them.

They are bi-directional.  A simple noise trap is a capacitor which is connected to neutral and a simple noise block is inductor in series with the hot line.  More complex filters will use a network of capacitors and inductors.  Theoretically a filter could be a block on one side and a trap on the other, but most are either traps on both sides or blocks on both sides.  If you all you are wanting to do is prevent your UPS from sucking signal, a simple noise block should be adequate.  You could probably butcher an X10 Pro XPPF to make several (3?) simple noise blocks.

[steven r]

...Do filters/blocks in one direction? If so what happens if you reverse them.

...They are bi-directional....

I haven't seen the filters yet but dave w described them as having "in" and "out" sides. Why would a bi-directional filter need an "in" and an "out"?

As mentioned earlier...

...Internally the can is a low pass,  L-C, PI filter.  Each line has a series inductor...

[dave w]

Wohoo! Let me weigh in on this. I guess I wasn't clear enough when talking about the MECI line filters in the first place.

1. The MECI line filters I am using are blocks. They are low pass filters. They pass 60Hz really good. They pass 100kHz really bad. I have never connected an audio generator and o'scope to one, so can not elaborate on the roll-off, but would guess 1KHz and above. No component values are given on the filter.

2.They seem to work equally well whether grounded or not, which is a hint as to how much signal sucking (or shunting the signal to ground) could be taking place.

3 " IN" and "OUT refers my connection of a two or three wire extension cords for input (plug end) and output (socket end). I don't have one that I can look at, but do not remember any contact lugs marked as IN or OUT. It is just a simple PI filter, so I don't think it gives a rip about orientation.

4. Since the filters do not PASS the X10 signal, they may lessen or stop the "signal sucking" effects some UPS seem to do, if the UPS is plugged into the filter. (Through the filter, those UPS's would actually look like a very high impedance to ground to 100KHz , rather than a very low impedance to ground). As you can guess I have no UPS.

I do have nine or so of these home brew line filters, mostly on devices with very noisy switching power supplies (Toshiba big screen, CFL torchires, microwave(s), etc. and in a previous home, a Lennox Pulse furnace).

BTW a synapse just fired and I remember something (any applause in recognition of this unusual feat is appreciated). When we first got the furnace, I could not get any X10 down that branch. After installing the filter in the furnace, the branch became usable to X10. I have two of the ELK signal level meters and there was not huge amounts of noise riding on the furnace branch, which caused fits of frustration in the trouble shooting. This decade old experience may have been my first experience with a "signal sucker". If it was, there is hope for you guys with sucking UPS units.
Going back to sleep now.

[steven r]

...a synapse just fired and I remember something (any applause in recognition of this unusual feat is appreciated)....

Clap, clap and thanks for the update.
I'll post my results using them with UPSs after I try them.

[steven r]

...They seem to work equally well whether grounded or not, which is a hint as to how much signal sucking (or shunting the signal to ground) could be taking place....

So I'll be fine just wiring the neutral and live wires and leaving the grounded wire uncut?

BTW... I have an old Isobar noise & surge protector that works well for isolating signal suckers. Too bad I can't buy a bunch of those for $1.95 each. 

[dave w]

[So I'll be fine just wiring the neutral and live wires and leaving the grounded wire uncut?

Yup. I have them with ground/no ground and see no difference in performance.

I definitely am interested in hearing how they work on your UPS.

Good luck

[steven r]

I got my filters today! Boy are they huge, ugly beasts. I don't care if they work, however.

The wires I plan to use them with are on a separate order from somewhere else, however. I think I'll pick up a cord or 2 locally till I get my order.
These have the circuit diagram printed on them! Wish I had a way to post it here for the electronic Gurus to evaluate. I do plan to connect a ground wire as the circuit goes to ground between 2 .0047 UF caps. They also do have "Line" and "load" sides marked.

As a side note... I was please to see that they had recycled a Smirnoff box for shipping. (Box was turned inside out.) Yeah for recycling!

[steven r]

Very crude circuit drawing of filter.

      o--------+------mmmmm-------+--------+---------+------mmmmm------+-----------o
L              !          /       !        !         =          /      !                L
I              !         /        !        >         !         /       !                O
N    o--G      =        /         =        <         +--G     /        =                A
E              !       /          !        >         !       /         !                D
               !      /           !        !         =      /          !
      o--------+------mmmmm-------+--------+---------+------mmmmm------+-----------o

o   - connecting point on outside of filter
!   - vertical connecting wire
mmm - coil
G   - ground
=   - cap
>
<   - resister
>

Coils are underlined with a dotted line and there is a connecting dotted line between the coils.

L = 2 X .440 MH
R = 1 X 10 Meg Ohms
C = 3 X 0.10 UF
   = 2 X .0047 UF

I'm guessing that the ground is connected between the two .0047 UF caps.

Hope this crude drawing helps someone out there understand it. I've forgotten what the pair of coils with a dotted line between them means.

[I hope you don't mind, but I cleaned up your drawing using "Preformated text." -- roger1818]

[JeffVolp]

Unfortunately, this will be a pretty good X10 signal sucker.  The .1uF directly across the line looks like just 13 ohms to the X10 signal.  A transmitter like the PSC05 is rated for 60 mW average into a 5 ohm load.

To put this in perspective, the “cheap” phase coupler recommended by some is just a .1uF 600V capacitor across the two phases.

[roger1818]

Unfortunately, this will be a pretty good X10 signal sucker.

I agree.  It might not cause you problems if you have a strong signal and the filters are on circuts that don't use X10, but it wouldn't be my first pick for an X10 noise filter.  It certainly won't help resolve issues with signal sucking devices.

BTW. Thanks Steven for the drawing!

[dave w]

After seeing the component values, I can see where Jeff and Roger are coming from (my newest filter is a couple years old and none of my filters are in positions to easily see the cans). However I do use the filters on circuits that use X10...even have X10 controller plugged into same outlet as the filter I have on the noisy Toshiba big screen, and have stong signal at outlet and all other outlets on branch. Jury is still out, please post results after installing.

[steven r]

It's been awhile since I did any serious soldering and my work is not the best but the 1st prototype is helping!
After plugging one UPS into it, things are working where they weren't working before.
After I get my ESM1, I'll run some tests and post the results.

[dave w]

Yeah, this is same results I had with our Lennox furnace. After I installed the filter I had signal all over the branch where I did not prior to installing the filter in the furnace. I had an X10 appliance module, controlling the furnace fan, wired into the line side of the filter and never had a problem getting signal to the appliance module. I don't think "signal sucking" from these filters is much of an issue. Put it this way; having actually used the filters, I don't experience it, but I DO have a good repeater.