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[wesboyer]

Does anyone have an INTERNAL schematic for WS13A and companion WS14A wall switches?

Reference: WS12A/WS14A: Single & Three-Way Decorator Wall Dimmer Setup and Operating Instructions

Specifically I need to know:

• What is the nature of the signal on the TRAVELLER wire from the companion switch WS14A back to the WS13A?
  .
• What is the leakage current?
  .
• What is the intermittent current when WS14A is depressed?
  (I am assuming the current is derived from the black line feed to the WS14A and returns to neutral [in the WS13A] via the traveller wire.)
  

Please picture this (make a drawing if it helps):

• 1. A power line from the house connecting to a GFCI outlet in the garage.
  .
• 2. The protected side of the GFCI outlet feeding a line to the WS13A (also in the garage).
  .
• 3. The WS13A connected to a local switched LOAD (still in the garage) using the GFCI protected power.
  .
• 4. The traveller wire going back to the house where it connects to the WS14A.
  .
• 5. The WS14A is in the house with the black hot line input connected to the UNPROTECTED [input] side of the same line that feeds the GFCI in step 1.
  .
• 6. The signal current in the traveller wire comes directly from the house line feed and goes out to the garage returning through the GFCI NEUTRAL causing an UNBALANCE between the currents in the BLACK (hot) line and the WHITE (neutral) wires.  If this current UNBALANCE is too large it trips the GFCI outlet.
  

MY QUESTION:  Is the traveller wire current enough to trip the GFCI?   [The full load current DOES trip it.]

Please post a reply ONLY if you fully understand my question.  Thank you. 

P.S. I do not have enough underground wires to bring the GFCI PROTECTED hot line (black wire) [and/or neutral (white wire)] back to the house to feed the WS14A in addition to the TRAVELLER wire.  Also, I do not want to put a WIRELESS switch in the WS14A location.

[Oldtimer]

I think there are a couple of issues in your post that require clarification.   First, we need to know exactly how many conductors plus ground you have running to your garage and what color they are.  second, it sounds like you're trying to have both an always on outlet and a switched lamp, with two way control, operating over far too few conductors.  Give us a little more info please.  If you have a scanner or a digital camera anything you draw could be attached to your next post so we could see what you're seeing.

[KDR]

The GFCI outlet you are describing is designed to protect mutiple outlets added to the circuit after itself. If your goal is to add the switches and light and have them protectd by the GFCI you can't do it by running only one wire back to the house.

However you can add a junction box before the outlet, bring the wiring that comes from the house plus the added traveller wire into that first. From the junction box feed the GFCI outlet, then go back into the juction box and bring out the wires to feed the WS13A switch.

[KDR]

By the way if you did want the switches and light on the protected side of the GFCI you would need to run a line wire back to the switch in the house from the protected side of the GFCI along with the traveller. You don't need the neutral to go back to it however you would need to have the light and master switch use the neutral on the protected out side of the GFCI.

Typically switches and lights are not on GFCI circuits. Sometimes they are but when this is the case a GFCI breaker is used in the main panel.

[Oldtimer]

If KDR's diagram describes what you want to do but you can't add the "Traveler" wire I'd suggest the following as a simple solution to your problem.  Eliminate the "Control" connection, the "Traveler" and the WS14A and install an MC460 mini controller in the house instead to remotely operate the WS13A.

[dave w]

wesboyer

Although not schematic for WS13,  this will be close.

http://www.laureanno.com/ws467.jpg

You ask about leakage current, have you measured any?

You ask if the traveller current is enough to trip the GFI, which is kind of irrelavent since we don't know where your GFI trips (10 ma, 20ma?).

I think oldtimer and KDR are correct.... you can't feed the companion switch from the unprotected side.

If your WS13A controls a light, can't you feed it from the unprotedted side as KDR suggests?

[wesboyer]

Thanks to all who have responded, but in my original post I gave too many details at the same time as simplifying the description of my circuit. NOBODY has answered the POSTED QUESTION.  I can only deduce from the schematic provided by "dave w" that the traveller wire delivers the full pull-in current to the latching relay at 120VAC -- IF the WS13A is the SAME AS the WS467!  Probably being more than 5ma it WILL TRIP the GFCI in the current configuration.  QUESTION ANSWERED!  I will bite the bullet and do some rewiring of the 120 volt circuit in the garage -- not easy to do and remain compliant with the NEC!
If you couldn't find the original reference diagram go to
http://www.x10.com/support/support_manuals.htm and look for the reference link under Home Automation:
Decorator Dimmer wall switch WS12A 20K ws12a-14a-is.pdf ws12a-14a-is.pdf

wesboyer
Although not schematic for WS13, this will be close.
http://www.laureanno.com/ws467.jpg
You ask about leakage current, have you measured any?

Thanks very much for the schematic, Dave.  The leakage current I asked about was current through the OFF companion switch (WS14A).  According to the schematic provided (SP Normally Open PB), it should be ZERO -- unlike some X-10 modules that have substantial 120VAC leakage current through the OFF state.


wesboyer
"Newbie" to the forum, but experienced Electrical Engineer.
Life Member IEEE. 

[dave w]

NOBODY has answered the POSTED QUESTION. 

We don't charge for incorrect or mis-guided answers

the traveller wire delivers the full pull-in current to the latching relay at 120VAC -- IF the WS13A is the SAME AS the WS467! 

No, not exactly. The traveller only needs to supply enough current to provide an input to controller chip. Similar to the 467 where the chip fires the triac through a driver trtransistorthe chip in WS13 pulses the relay solenoid through a driver to "ratchet" a cam activated mechanical switch. So traveller current would be less than  "full pull-in current to the latching relay at 120VAC ". Although I think your assumption of current being > 5mA  is a good guess.

Just for giggles, before you re-wire the garage, you might try the WS13 to see what happens.

unlike some X-10 modules that have substantial 120VAC leakage current through the OFF state.

right, but THAT leakleakageto sense a change in any switch at the load (like turning on a lamp at the socket switch) so is fed through the load all the time. I have never measured but it is higher than traveller current. (>50mA I believe).

Here you will like these.

http://www.edcheung.com/automa/ha.htm
http://www.idobartana.com/hakb/index.htm
http://www.laureanno.com/

[wesboyer]

Although not schematic for WS13, this will be close.
http://www.laureanno.com/ws467.jpg

I really don't think the schematic is very close to the WS13A.  The 467 is a dimmable two-wire bi-lateral switch to replace an SPST line switch while the 13A is a three-wire module requiring a true NEUTRAL connection and acts more like an appliance module -- suggesting a set of true relay contacts in lieu of triac control of the load.  A triac may still used to control the relay.  I'd still like to see its schematic.  Where are the X-10 designers/engineers when you want them?

Just for giggles, before you re-wire the garage, you might try the WS13 to see what happens.

You know what they say about great minds ... that's exactly what I plan to do.  I have the WS13A on order and shipment is on the way.  I was hoping to get an idea of what to expect before throwing the switch.  I don't have time/space to detail the code violation I found that started this whole exercise!  Let's just say a white wire was delivering full time juice to a location where a porch lamp NEUTRAL white return wire was connected to a local bare wire GROUND in a switch box!!!

Thanks for the educational references.  Everybody ought to read them.

[dave w]

Although not schematic for WS13, this will be close.
http://www.laureanno.com/ws467.jpg

I really don't think the schematic is very close to the WS13A. 

yes, I should have been more specific. I meant in reference to your original 3 questions, the 467 schematic "is close". Your questions relate to what I consider the "input" side of the controller chip. i.e. PLC code receiver input, HCUC addressing, local sense, and remote control from traveller. The output side of the controller differs mainly in what is being controlled i.e. a triac (bi-lateral switch if you prefer) or a solenoid. (NOT a standard relay per say).  The controller chip themselves differ between lights (triac control) and appliance (solenoid) control. Also X10 has several different chip numbers, but the actual "silicone slab" is very similar to the original 1979 designs, differing mainly in pin out configurations.

The "input" side of the controller for the;  2 wire wall switch, 3 way wall switch, three wire wall switch, (triac and "relay'), "super socket" receptacle,  lamp module and appliance module are functionally all very similar. X10 reuses their original design as much as they can (check out Ido's material, where there are plans for turning a two wire wall switch into a three wire with neutral - essentially turning a 467 in to a WS12 with the addition of a wire). 

The 467 is a dimmable two-wire bi-lateral switch to replace an SPST line switch while the 13A is a three-wire module requiring a true NEUTRAL connection and acts more like an appliance module -- suggesting a set of true relay contacts in lieu of triac control of the load. 

Sure, it is a solenoid "relay" that makes a nice solid "clunk" when the solenoid rotates the cam. Any X10  "relay" module MUST have a neutral since there is no parasitic power available for the internal electronics,once the relay is closed. The 2 wire wall switch derives power from the drop across the triac.

Let's just say a white wire was delivering full time juice to a location where a porch lamp NEUTRAL white return wire was connected to a local bare wire GROUND in a switch box!!!

Well, that sould have made your GFI go nuts.

[wesboyer]

OK, now; here's the rest of the story. 

What started this whole question thread was that I want to sell my house and the city inspector said I had to install GFCIs in all my outdoor receptacles and garage plugs before new owners could get a certificate of occupancy. 

First, I had to get a weather-proof depth-extension for the box on the outside rear of the house because there were too many wires for the GFCI to fit – two 2-wire input cables (w/ ground) from a junction box in the basement and two out to the underground feed for the garage. 

To kill two birds with one stone I decided to feed the whole garage from the protected GFCI outlet on the house.  The GFCI circuit tripped immediately when I screwed the fuse back in and I couldn’t reset it!  I had to do some trouble-shooting to determine the cause.  Here is what I found:

·        The three-way light switch (inside the house near the back door) used the second pair of wires in the cables to the garage for the outside lights, but was fed from a WHITE wire that was HOT all the time.
·        Said HOT WHITE wire was also feeding juice to the outside/rear door light switch.
·        The Outside/rear door lamp WHITE NEUTRAL return was connected inside the switch box to bare wire GROUND!!!!!!

The current from the indoor switch to the garage lights was fed from inside the house before the GFCI and returned thru the GFCI NEUTRAL, causing the unbalance.  It still tripped even after I corrected the wiring errors with a normal SPST line voltage switch. I could not use a three-way switch in the house to control the garage lights -- not enough wires to the switch location. 

My proposed solution was to use an X-10 WS13 "master" switch in the garage with the “companion” switch in the house.  (See http://www.x10.com/support/support_manuals.htm and look for the reference link under Home Automation: Decorator wall switch WS13A 25K ws13a-is.pdf.)   

I wanted to know "What is the Signal on the Traveller Wire Between WS13A and Companion WS14A?"

Before rewiring the garage and adding a second GFCI I tried the X-10 hardware. 

·        Replaced the three-way light switch in the garage with a WS-13A  [on the GFCI circuit].
·        Replaced the three-way light switch in the house (three wires) with a WS-14A (only two wires) [NOT on the GFCI circuit].
·        Corrected the code violations without pulling wires to an inaccessable location!
·        Freed up one underground wire and eliminated need for separate GFCI in the garage.

I think oldtimer and KDR are correct.... you can't feed the companion switch from the unprotected side.

 
Happy to say they are wrong.  The good news  is that the momentary contact control current from the house is not enough to unbalance the GFCI.  It does not trip anymore.  An added bonus is that I can control the garage outside lights from anywhere in the house or car (in the driveway, of course) with a remote control keypad – even the universal TV remote control we use in the living room to override the lamp on the X-10 timer control module.  [I already had a transceiver for the wireless control, but wanted to retain the local switch control at the back door location.]
I believe you can consider this case closed;   that is, unless the very low control current in the "companion switch" traveller wire is TOO LOW  to keep the contacts clean!  And that reopens the original question:  "What IS the Signal on the Traveller Wire Between WS13A and Companion WS14A?"  [/i][/u]

Thanks to all who took an interest in the outcome. [/color] [/size]

p.s.  Yes, the 61 year old house still has screw-in plug fuses, but as soon as I can get my bros-in-law to help, it will get a new circuit breaker panel.

[Brian H]

Glad you found the problem and passed that information on to all.