X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: tom j on July 02, 2009, 11:04:42 PM
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Hello guys just isolated a line noise problem it appears to be coming from my refrigerator I found two different noise filters but I'm not sure which one I should use. The refrigerator is rated at 15A so would a 5AMP be sufficient or would I need the 10AMP there appears to only be two versions of these and no explanation as how to select one or the other based on the output of the appliance. Thanks!
Tom j.
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As I understand it, and please someone correct me if this is wrong, the Amp rating of the filters is based on the current that the connected device (refrigerator in your case) is likely to draw through it.
If that is the case, your 15 Amp refrigerator would burn up either the 5 or 10 Amp filters.
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In most homes today the refrigerator is on its own dedicated circuit. If it truly is generating noise, the big XPF 20A in-line filter can be wired into that circuit at the distribution panel.
That said, I don't recall ever reading about a refrigerator generating noise. Maybe this is a new one with some sort of high-efficiency electronic control rather than an ordinary induction motor?
Jeff
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In most homes today the refrigerator is on its own dedicated circuit. If it truly is generating noise, the big XPF 20A in-line filter can be wired into that circuit at the distribution panel.
That said, I don't recall ever reading about a refrigerator generating noise. Maybe this is a new one with some sort of high-efficiency electronic control rather than an ordinary induction motor?
Jeff
Well I don't know but when I unplug the refrigerator the problem is gone, it's definitely the frig, it's expensive but not new I think about 8 years old, and isn't on a dedicated circuit. So the refrigerator will burn it up the 5 or 10amp? it's even advertised for use with refrigerators. ??? Thanks Guys.
Tom j.
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With many new appliances now having electronic controls. I would say that noise or signal sucker maybe possible. ???
I believe we have seen reports of modern washers and dryers also making problems. ::) Like the ones I saw with a communications connector so they could communicate with each other.
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tom j heres a 15amp noise filter.
http://cgi.ebay.com/X10-15-Amp-Plug-in-Noise-Filter-AF120_W0QQitemZ120315133679QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item1c03573eef&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50
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The refrigerator being a signal sucker is more likely. It would not suprise me that the electronic control board could have a capacitor on the power input as part of a surge protection circuit.
Something to consider is that both noise sources and signal suckers are additive. The refrigerator may be the "final straw" that lowers the signal level enough (or produces enough noise) to cause reliability problems. There may still be other devices that are contributing to the problem.
I was thinking about the 15A spec on your refrigerator. Does it say it pulls 15A, or it should be plugged into a 15A circuit? Refrigerator compressors are actually not that large. Like A/C compresses, they will pull a surge current when starting up (especially if it was not off long enough for the pressure to bleed down). However, the running current should be well under 15A, and perhaps even under 5A. That said, you still have to size the filter so the surge current will not burn it out.
Jeff
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The refrigerator being a signal sucker is more likely. It would not suprise me that the electronic control board could have a capacitor on the power input as part of a surge protection circuit.
Something to consider is that both noise sources and signal suckers are additive. The refrigerator may be the "final straw" that lowers the signal level enough (or produces enough noise) to cause reliability problems. There may still be other devices that are contributing to the problem.
I was thinking about the 15A spec on your refrigerator. Does it say it pulls 15A, or it should be plugged into a 15A circuit? Refrigerator compressors are actually not that large. Like A/C compresses, they will pull a surge current when starting up (especially if it was not off long enough for the pressure to bleed down). However, the running current should be well under 15A, and perhaps even under 5A. That said, you still have to size the filter so the surge current will not burn it out.
Jeff
Say Jeff thanks for the help!!! Going to call GE and ask them Monday please check back so you can help walk me through this. Called x10 and they recommended using a noise filter at the box FXPF is the one they suggested, and wiring it in at the breaker. A plug in filter would be a lot easier but I guess I could have my electrician stop by and do it I don't really like playing around with electricity. But I will call GE and ask them specifically what you said. Thanks!!!!! And I gave you a helpful!
Tom j.
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tom j heres a 15amp noise filter.
http://cgi.ebay.com/X10-15-Amp-Plug-in-Noise-Filter-AF120_W0QQitemZ120315133679QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item1c03573eef&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50
Say Kramer THANK!! just saw this got to gave ya a point for this. Will call GE and see if I can use a 5 0r 10 amp like Jeff suggested but this is good information to have, and Kramer for a newbie you're really on the case. :)%
Tom j.
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>! No problem tom j.......
:' and my wife says I spend to much time on Ebay.... rofl
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>! No problem tom j.......
:' and my wife says I spend to much time on Ebay.... rofl
Hay Mr. K any -:) idea who makes it? seems pretty nice don't think it's an x10 product. Thanks!!
tom j.
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It's hard to read in the picture... I magnified it 200% and it looks like Advanced (Something) Technologies out of Indianapolis Indiana.
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It's hard to read in the picture... I magnified it 200% and it looks like Advanced (Something) Technologies out of Indianapolis Indiana.
Thanks might email the guy when I find out I'll let you know. Probably will work just fine, largest plugin one I've seen!
Tom j.
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Well guys called GE and it seems like it 11.3 for the running amp, so the 5 or 10 I guess won't work only the plugin 15 or the one that x10 recommended that you place in the box that one is rated at 20, so what would you guys suggest? Wonder how much the FXPF that x10 suggested guess I could have my electrician friend pop it in. Hmm B:( ;D
Tom j.
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Heck x10 wants 60 bucks for the XPF that's a JOKE! Thanks Kramer going to get the plugin for sure!
Tom j.
http://www.x10.com/pro/automation/xpf.htm
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Wow you could buy 2 of the 15amps for that price......
Let us know how it works out
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60 bucks yeah right found it on eBay for if you can believe it for 5 BUCKS!! Probably would of got the one Kramer gave me a link to but they want 8 bucks to ship. Say guys how difficult would this be to install in your gain box. Also it says to place it as close as possible so where would be the best spot to place it, at the plug itself? B:(
Tom j.
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Found this installation manual for the PFX on eBay see below seems like I'll have to run the hot all the way from the basement to the Freg, am I reading this correctly.
Tom j.
http://www.x10pro.com/pro/pdf/xpf.pdf
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am I reading this correctly.
I think you merey need to mount the filter between the breaker panel and the Freg(?).
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but they want 8 bucks to ship.
The widget costs N dollars. Some eBay sellers charge actual cost of the item, and actual shipping. Others subsidize the price of the item with the shipping charge. Most people don't check the total delivered cost, and just grab the one with the lowest quoted price. Years ago some sellers were almost giving away MP3 players, but then charged $25 or more for shipping. eBay rule changes stopped most of that, and shipping charges are more reasonable today.
How much do you think it costs to ship something anyway? Priority Mail starts at 5 bucks. Add the cost of packing materials (PM boxes are free but bubble wrap and packing peanuts are not). And then add the time for packaging, printing packing slips, shipping labels, etc. Eight bucks is probably pretty close to the actual cost of shipping one unit.
I know places like Amazon offer free shipping. They negotiated a much better rate from the carrier than the average Joe can get. The same goes for shipping supplies. And I'm sure their shipping department is tuned for maximum efficiency to minimize the costs.
Jeff
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XPF filters can be found for less than $60.
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I'll check that shipping -:) but could someone check that link and tell me exactly how to install this thing. Thanks!!
Tom j.
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The XPF wires in series with the hot line feeding the load, and also connects to neutral. While it works best when located near the load, it can be installed anywhere in the run between the circuit breaker and the load. Everthing past the filter will be isolated from the rest of the power distribution network at the X10 carrier frequency. Note that the filter is large. It will fit in most deep triple-gang electrical boxes. It may not fit in the plastic boxes with screw ribs extending into the box at the top and bottom.
Jeff
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Tom,
I too discovered that one of my fridges simply brought my system down when it would start to cool. I used the plug-in 15amp AF120 filter, which I found on eBay for 24.99 + 5 s/h. It worked out great. The best part about it is that it's actually fused. That means that if something goes wrong, all I have to do is replace a small fuse unlike X10's that are not fused.
I ended up doing the same thing for my washer (newer high efficiency model) because it brought down almost half of my house too.
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Tom,
I too discovered that one of my fridges simply brought my system down when it would start to cool. I used the plug-in 15amp AF120 filter, which I found on eBay for 24.99 + 5 s/h. It worked out great. The best part about it is that it's actually fused. That means that if something goes wrong, all I have to do is replace a small fuse unlike X10's that are not fused.
I ended up doing the same thing for my washer (newer high efficiency model) because it brought down almost half of my house too.
Hi Great thanks! that's the way I'll go. Seems a little bulky and does it plug under the unit or on the front can't really tell from the picture.
Tom j.
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Tom,
I too discovered that one of my fridges simply brought my system down when it would start to cool. I used the plug-in 15amp AF120 filter, which I found on eBay for 24.99 + 5 s/h. It worked out great. The best part about it is that it's actually fused. That means that if something goes wrong, all I have to do is replace a small fuse unlike X10's that are not fused.
I ended up doing the same thing for my washer (newer high efficiency model) because it brought down almost half of my house too.
Smarthome is having a sale of the AF120 for $17.99, but of course you will have to pay shipping.
http://www.smarthome.com/4845ACF/15-Amp-Plug-In-Noise-Filter-AF120/p.aspx
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Yes the external fuse is a nice thing to have and hope you never need to change. ;D
Smarthome's five and ten amp filters also have fuses, but are internal and are soldered in.
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Hi Great thanks! that's the way I'll go. Seems a little bulky and does it plug under the unit or on the front can't really tell from the picture.
Tom j.
It is a bit bulky, but it comes with a screw that you'd use for the center of the gangbox front plate. It holds it nicely. The plug is at the bottom. The units I got were off-white, whereas X10's are dark brown and would not have gone well with my white wall. I have a total of 5 of these units around the house.
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It is a bit bulky, but it comes with a screw that you'd use for the center of the gangbox front plate.
Just be careful if you have metal wallplates. The XTB uses the same case, and one recently came back that "failed". The unit still worked fine, but the top of the plug prongs had been melted, and the case was scorched by the prongs. I suspect an unfastened metal wallplate slipped down and shorted the prongs together when the unit was plugged in. I may switch to the case without the mounting flange to prevent that from happening again.
Jeff
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The XPF wires in series with the hot line feeding the load, and also connects to neutral. While it works best when located near the load, it can be installed anywhere in the run between the circuit breaker and the load. Everthing past the filter will be isolated from the rest of the power distribution network at the X10 carrier frequency. Note that the filter is large. It will fit in most deep triple-gang electrical boxes. It may not fit in the plastic boxes with screw ribs extending into the box at the top and bottom.
Jeff
Thanks Jeff!! I'll show this to my electrician. This helps a lot.
Tom j.
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Oh yes. I have plastic wall plates and had one slip on to the pins of the adapter I was screwing to the outlet. I can just imagine if it was Metal. BANG ???
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Hi Great thanks! that's the way I'll go. Seems a little bulky and does it plug under the unit or on the front can't really tell from the picture.
Tom j.
It is a bit bulky, but it comes with a screw that you'd use for the center of the gangbox front plate. It holds it nicely. The plug is at the bottom. The units I got were off-white, whereas X10's are dark brown and would not have gone well with my white wall. I have a total of 5 of these units around the house.
Say x10dude, I actually would prefer the off white the one I saw pictured were kind of gray, say could you give me a link for the ones you purchased. Thanks
Tom j.
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Hey Tom, I'll send you private email with the details
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Hey Tom, I'll send you private email with the details
Thanks I'll be looking for it! :D
Tom j.
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It's hard to read in the picture... I magnified it 200% and it looks like Advanced (Something) Technologies out of Indianapolis Indiana.
Say Kramer got that 15 amp noise filter you saw on EBay works great solved my fridge problem no noise coming out of it now kind of large but I'll never really have see it. If space is at a premium might not work for everyone but it fits OK in my application Thanks!
Tom j.
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:)% Glad it solved your problem!!!!!!
>! Glad I could help..........
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Sounds like the ACT AF120 15 Amp Filter. It is quite large but the user replaceable fuse is a nice touch.
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Tom and Cramer,
The filter is an Advanced Control Technologies (ACT) AF120. ACT is the home of "Uncle Phil Kingery" who wrote a series of tutorials on X10.
The AF120 is a pretty stout filter. It combines both a high and low pass filter, quoted at 30:1 attenuation in the X10 frequency range.
Data sheets are located here: ACT Data Sheets (http://www.act-solutions.com/PCC/PCCSpecFrame.htm)
It's hard to read in the picture... I magnified it 200% and it looks like Advanced (Something) Technologies out of Indianapolis Indiana.
Thanks might email the guy when I find out I'll let you know. Probably will work just fine, largest plugin one I've seen!
Tom j.
Edit: Darn, Brian typed quicker again...
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In reality, it is a notch filter like the Leviton 6287 and the big X10 XPF. A notch filter shunts a band of frequencies to ground, and lets frequencies above and below that pass through with relatively little attenuation.
Jeff
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In reality, it is a notch filter like the Leviton 6287 and the big X10 XPF. A notch filter shunts a band of frequencies to ground, and lets frequencies above and below that pass through with relatively little attenuation.
Jeff
Really??
My schematic for the 6287 shows a resonant L-C notch filter. Attenuation at 80Khz is minimal (~3db).
When ACT quoted 30:1 attenuation from 80 to 200K I had assumed that to be minimum attenuation over that range.
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In reality, it is a notch filter like the Leviton 6287 and the big X10 XPF. A notch filter shunts a band of frequencies to ground, and lets frequencies above and below that pass through with relatively little attenuation.
Jeff
Really??
My schematic for the 6287 shows a resonant L-C notch filter. Attenuation at 80Khz is minimal (~3db).
When ACT quoted 30:1 attenuation from 80 to 200K I had assumed that to be minimum attenuation over that range.
I never was a filter guru, but it was fun to refer to a "Bose - Cherudy filter" cuz it made me sound smart. rofl
"sound" is the operative word. rofl rofl
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Maybe I didn't explain that very well. Maximum attenuation will be at the notch, which should be about 120KHz. Attenuation outside the notch decreases. While dependent on the Q, attenuation below 80KHz and above 200KHz should not be significant. That dovetails nicely with the input stage of most X10 modules, which have a tuned bandpass filter centered at 120KHz. You just need to block in-band noise that would get through that input bandpass filter.
Actually, a low-pass filter like the XPPF is much better at isolating noisy electrical devices from the powerline. However, the physical size of the inductors needed to build high-current low-pass filter with sufficient rejection at 120KHz would make the unit large and expensive. I am not aware of any being produced. Maybe I should consider offering one for special applications...
Jeff
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Also what to thank x10dude for the link he provided. The problem I was having was that when a all light on all lights off signal was given from my burglar alarm interface it would get out of sequence somehow almost like it would skip a beat, traced it down to the fridge unplugged it and the problem disappeared. The funny thing is that during the day this never happens ONLY AT NIGHT hmm..... strange, but anywho this filter did the trick Just can't figure out why this only effected the signal at night. I tried to think of something else that might be on only at night and not during the day but so far I've drawn a blank. Any thoughts guys. ???
Tom j.
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Maybe I didn't explain that very well. Maximum attenuation will be at the notch, which should be about 120KHz. Attenuation outside the notch decreases. While dependent on the Q, attenuation below 80KHz and above 200KHz should not be significant. That dovetails nicely with the input stage of most X10 modules, which have a tuned bandpass filter centered at 120KHz. You just need to block in-band noise that would get through that input bandpass filter.
Actually, a low-pass filter like the XPPF is much better at isolating noisy electrical devices from the powerline. However, the physical size of the inductors needed to build high-current low-pass filter with sufficient rejection at 120KHz would make the unit large and expensive. I am not aware of any being produced. Maybe I should consider offering one for special applications...
Jeff
The XPPF sounds very similar to the Leviton 6288 - big hulking inductors (115uH). It relies on the series impedance of the Inductor to perform it's filtering rather than the LC resonant point of the 6287.
I agree these filters are more appropriate for broadband noise sources. They are also less prone to variation due to component tolerances. I have a number of the 6288 style (smarthome) filters that vary in effectiveness due to component tolerance variation.
I've never seen a 6288 style filter in anything approaching 15 amp (typical is 5A). The inductors in this type of device would be very large indeed to keep the coil resistance and power dissipation down.
When I read the ACT filter description, I had envisioned a 6288 style lowpass filter with a high frequency bypass cap (to give the High Pass function). In reality, I don't know why anyone would want to add a cap to provide the High pass feature. This is my long way of saying that you are most likely correct. This is likely a bandstop filter, not a lowpass + highpass as described.
Thanks for keeping me honest,
Boiler
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I never was a filter guru, but it was fun to refer to a "Bose - Cherudy filter" cuz it made me sound smart. rofl
"sound" is the operative word. rofl rofl
OK Dave,
I remember now that you're an "audio type". Since I've never been shy of asking the stupid questions, can you explain what a "Bose - Cherudy filter" is?
In the event that the explanation involves the use of Bessel functions, you can ignore the question. I'd have to ask my math professor wife to explain them to me (again). The explanation would start as "How can you not get this...". There's a limit to the amount of humiliation I can take in one lifetime.
Boiler
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OK Dave,
I remember now that you're an "audio type". Since I've never been shy of asking the stupid questions, can you explain what a "Bose - Cherudy filter" is?
In the event that the explanation involves the use of Bessel functions, you can ignore the question. I'd have to ask my math professor wife to explain them to me (again). The explanation would start as "How can you not get this...". There's a limit to the amount of humiliation I can take in one lifetime.
Boiler
You won't get a technical description from me, and I probably did not even spell correctly. I believe "Bose and Cherudy" are the mathematicians the filter was named after...which means your wife will know more about it than I. All I remember is it is a type of filter used in (either) a radio IF or a transmitter synthesizer. (Motorola - 28 years) I confuse it with the Chebyshev filter. rofl
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Say Boiler, you really seem to be up on this it's definitely above my pay grade but I have a dehumidifier average size by Westinghouse. Turned it on in the basement the other night and it put some noise in the system saw my All Lights On/Of getting a bit out of step. I don't use this very much except when the basement gets a little damp. Can't see a model number or anything. Any idea what the running amperage might be on a device like this? Saw those x10 Pro 5 amp filters for less then 4 bucks on EBay and would pickup a few if they would work on something like this. Thanks!
Tom j.
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The dehumidifier probably has a compressor in it for cooling. The starting current and maybe even the running current would probably be over the five amps. The coils in the five amp filters are not very heavy and maybe over loaded.
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Say Boiler, you really seem to be up on this it's definitely above my pay grade but I have a dehumidifier average size by Westinghouse. Turned it on in the basement the other night and it put some noise in the system saw my All Lights On/Of getting a bit out of step. I don't use this very much except when the basement gets a little damp. Can't see a model number or anything. Any idea what the running amperage might be on a device like this? Saw those x10 Pro 5 amp filters for less then 4 bucks on EBay and would pickup a few if they would work on something like this. Thanks!
Tom j.
Average 40 pint a day humidifier is 500W - 700W. Soleus makes one with a scroll compressor that is < 300W (234W on my "Kill-A-Watt") however the compressor only lasts 32 days past the warranty expiration. Our new (sigh) Frigidaire 50 pint a day draws 558 watts on High.
As Brian said, a 5 amp filter might be a little tight unless your Westinghouse draws less than about 600W.
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Hi Tom,
As Brian and Dave have already pointed out, the XPPF filter is probably underrated for your dehumidifier.
The AF120 that you're using on your refrigerator should be more than capable of handling this load (15A). As Jeff Volp pointed out, this may not be a true low pass filter. On the positive side, it is working on your fridge which also uses a compressor (similar noise but probably lower current).
Can you move the AF120 to your dehumidifier as a test run? If it doesn't work, I'd be hard pressed to recommend a different 10Amp or better filter for this application.
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Say glad I asked! Maybe I'll try the The AF120 as you suggested, did someone say that because this is not a true low pass filter was really not designed to filter out noise from a appliance like a refrigerator, seems to work fine. Thanks
Tom j.
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Say I was just wondering is there anyway I can determine what the running amperage is I have a Kill-A-Watt to and a multimeter. Thanks
Tom j.
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My Kill-A-Watt P4400 has an amperage read out choice.
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My Kill-A-Watt P4400 has an amperage read out choice.
I actually have something similar let me check I think it does do amperage. Thanks
Tom j.
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Say glad I asked! Maybe I'll try the The AF120 as you suggested, did someone say that because this is not a true low pass filter was really not designed to filter out noise from a appliance like a refrigerator, seems to work fine. Thanks
Tom j.
Jeff Volp pointed out that this is not a true low pass filter. Yes a true low pass would probably be better in this application. The problem is, I don't know of any plug in LPF's in the 10 to 15amp range. There are wire in units, but these are normally intended for protecting an entire circuit.
Since the AF120 is already working on your refrigerator, I'd give it a try on the dehumidifier. The components in the two appliances are similar (compressor, pressure switches, etc) and the nose spectrum may be similar as well.
From your other post, if you are trying to measure the current draw of the Dehumidifier - don't forget to measure the start current. Compressors can draw significantly more current on startup than they do at steady state speed.
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Say glad I asked! Maybe I'll try the The AF120 as you suggested, did someone say that because this is not a true low pass filter was really not designed to filter out noise from a appliance like a refrigerator, seems to work fine. Thanks
Tom j.
Jeff Volp pointed out that this is not a true low pass filter. Yes a true low pass would probably be better in this application. The problem is, I don't know of any plug in LPF's in the 10 to 15amp range. There are wire in units, but these are normally intended for protecting an entire circuit.
Since the AF120 is already working on your refrigerator, I'd give it a try on the dehumidifier. The components in the two appliances are similar (compressor, pressure switches, etc) and the nose spectrum may be similar as well.
From your other post, if you are trying to measure the current draw of the Dehumidifier - don't forget to measure the start current. Compressors can draw significantly more current on startup than they do at steady state speed.
Are you suggesting when you plug it in there's kind of like a surge so to speak? Seems like the running amperage is 4.6 is that to close to the 5 amp rating on the x10 Pro module. And the AF-120 appears to be working fine no more noise line problems. Just found the directions for this thing and it does have a max current so I'll have to check, got another question on this but I'll post later. Thanks!!
Tom j.
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My Kill-A-Watt P4400 has an amperage read out choice.
Say Brian thanks!!!!! for reminding me about that amperage read out mine is similar to yours just made by UPM I think it also computes the dollar amount of the devices you're using if you input the charge per kilowatt hour. Say what's more important the running or start up and what would happen it it was exceeded. ???
Tom j.
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Are you suggesting when you plug it in there's kind of like a surge so to speak? Tom j.
Not when you plug it in, but when the dehumidifier starts there is a "starting current" which can be two to three times the "run current". Have you ever been in a home when the HVAC turned on and the lights flickered...thats starting current. If the five amp filter is internally fused, the fuse will blow. If it is not fused then the risk is the compressor in the unit stalling because the filter wouldn't deliver the required "starting current".
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Are you suggesting when you plug it in there's kind of like a surge so to speak? Tom j.
Not when you plug it in, but when the dehumidifier starts there is a "starting current" which can be two to three times the "run current". Have you ever been in a home when the HVAC turned on and the lights flickered...thats starting current. If the five amp filter is internally fused, the fuse will blow. If it is not fused then the risk is the compressor in the unit stalling because the filter wouldn't deliver the required "starting current".
Thanks Dave! I've learned a lot! -:) Just a few more things my Frig is rated at 15 amps and has a running current of 12 so does that mean that it won't exceed 15 amps? And is there any way my AF120 can damage my refrigerator, it's not new but I wouldn't want to damage the compressor or something. Thanks again Really!!!!
Tom j.
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The fuse in the AF120 is a time delay type. It is meant for momentary surges from motors etc. starting. I would also say the components in the filter are picked to accommodate momentary over currents. Just that a constant over current could damage them.
The Smarthome FilterLincs; both 10 and 5 amp filters. Have a soldered in time delay fuse.
The 5 amp X10 and X10Pro filters have no fuses and a constant overload can overheat the coils.
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Tom j.
[/quote]
Soleus makes one with a scroll compressor that is < 300W (234W on my "Kill-A-Watt") however the compressor only lasts 32 days past the warranty expiration.
[/quote]
That's longer than most "SOLEUS" equipment.
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The fuse in the AF120 is a time delay type. It is meant for momentary surges from motors etc. starting. I would also say the components in the filter are picked to accommodate momentary over currents. Just that a constant over current could damage them.
The Smarthome FilterLincs; both 10 and 5 amp filters. Have a soldered in time delay fuse.
The 5 amp X10 and X10Pro filters have no fuses and a constant overload can overheat the coils.
So are you saying that my frig is basically safe? and if it's rate at 15 do I have to concern myself about it possibly exceeding it. Might eventually wire in that x10 Pro 20 amp. Thanks!
Tom j.
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The time delay fuse should be able to take the momentary starting current and the 12 Amps is less then the 15 amps ACT says is the max.
Should work fine.
The specifications for the fuse in mine. Dainfuse 65TS 150H [yes 100% China] is 135% for an hour max. 5 sec to 2 minutes at 200%.
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The time delay fuse should be able to take the momentary starting current and the 12 Amps is less then the 15 amps ACT says is the max.
Should work fine.
The specifications for the fuse in mine. Dainfuse 65TS 150H [yes 100% China] is 135% for an hour max. 5 sec to 2 minutes at 200%.
Great Thanks! seems to work fine any idea what the life expectancy on this unit might be China hmm....
Tom j.
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The time delay fuse should be able to take the momentary starting current and the 12 Amps is less then the 15 amps ACT says is the max.
Should work fine.
The specifications for the fuse in mine. Dainfuse 65TS 150H [yes 100% China] is 135% for an hour max. 5 sec to 2 minutes at 200%.
Say where did you see those specs on the fuse, I don't remember seeing that.
Tom j.
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Googled 65TS and found the DAINFUSE web site. The AH120 spec. sheet shows a Littlefuse 326015 as a replacement. The time delay specifications maybe a UL or other agency thing, as most brands, I have seen,all have about the same delays.
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The time delay fuse should be able to take the momentary starting current and the 12 Amps is less then the 15 amps ACT says is the max.
Should work fine.
The specifications for the fuse in mine. Dainfuse 65TS 150H [yes 100% China] is 135% for an hour max. 5 sec to 2 minutes at 200%.
Brain do you also have one of these? and what do you use it for, what kind of appliance?
Tom j.
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I do have one and it is in storage. I was going to use it on my APC BX1000 UPS but found the 10 Amp Smarthome FilterLinc fit my installation better. The FilterLinc has a passthrough outlet on the front that is not filtered and that is where I have my PLM [Power Line Modem for Insteon] plugged in. Yes I have a mix of protocols in my home.
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I do have one and it is in storage. I was going to use it on my APC BX1000 UPS but found the 10 Amp Smarthome FilterLinc fit my installation better. The FilterLinc has a passthrough outlet on the front that is not filtered and that is where I have my PLM [Power Line Modem for Insteon] plugged in. Yes I have a mix of protocols in my home.
Say what would happen if my refrigerator exceeded the maximum current on the AH120? Think I'll plug in my Kill A Watt and check the maximum amperage. What do you think.
Tom j.
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Well this didn't turn out as I would have hoped. The AF120 filter seemed to have worked great for about 5 days or so then one day I came home and heard these strange sounds coming from the freg, I opened the door of the freezer, it's a side by side and heard something like sparking. It also appeared that the freezer was defrosting. Well I want to tell you I was freaked out. :o So I unplugged it from the and just plugged it in the wall after about an hour the freezer was cold again and everything appeared to n working correctly. I had just had the refrigerator serviced so I was extremely upset over the entire incident. Just wondering what you think happen I really didn't worry because of the fuse but apparently something happen seems like maybe it exceeded the current it was able to draw through the unit but it seems like that would have blown the fuse. Well back to the drawing board I guess. Any ideas what could of happen to cause this. ???
Tom j.
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Hard to say it was the filter and not a nasty coincidence. May have failed even if the filter was not there. Yes on a severe overload the fuse would have blown, but the fuse and the breaker for the outlet have similar traits. In theory even if the filter was not there the beaker may have not tripped and the sparking may have happened. I hope that it does not happen again with the filter removed.
I have two friends with refrigerators and electronic controls that had problems.
One had a component that would open up on a brown out condition and in theory save the unit. Problem was they also sometime as they failed overheated and burned a hole in the floor. That one got a recall from the manufacturer. In their case the repair technician installed a different and safer replacement part.
My other friend had a PC Board in it, with a relay, to control the defrost and compressor cycles. In that case the runs on the board where engineered to just safe and after a length of time deteriorated. One day the relay pads burned a hole in the board. Had to have a new board installed and the technician said he always stocked one in the truck. :'
I have been doing electronic stuff long enough to not say "that is impossible can't happen if that part is bad". Murphy and his law keep proving me incorrect. ::) So did the filter whack out the electronics. I don't think so but maybe.
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So, the fuse didn't blow? Are you sure this wasn't just a normal defrost cycle?
The AF120 is a "T" filter, comprised of two 120KHz traps in series, with a capacitor shunt to ground (the leg of the "T"). That would have negligible effect on 60Hz power. The 120KHz traps do have some series resistance, but that wouldn't be much different than running your fridge on an extension cord. Perhaps the series resistance was just too high for the compressor to reliably start up.
Compressors pull a hefty surge of current when they start up, particularly if they try to restart immediately after they are shut off (before the pressure bleeds down). You may have seen this with the lights briefly dimming while the compressor tries to start, and then you hear a click from its thermal limiter as it shuts off power for a minute or so. If there was a momentary power interruption while the compressor was running, your fridge could have gotten into this mode. But that might have caused the AF120 fuse to pop.
Jeff
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Sorry to read about your situation Tom. I've had my fridge running on the same fiilter for about 6 months now w/out any problems. As I had mentioned earlier, I also have another AF120 on my clothes washer, again, w/out any problems.
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So, the fuse didn't blow? Are you sure this wasn't just a normal defrost cycle?
The AF120 is a "T" filter, comprised of two 120KHz traps in series, with a capacitor shunt to ground (the leg of the "T"). That would have negligible effect on 60Hz power. The 120KHz traps do have some series resistance, but that wouldn't be much different than running your fridge on an extension cord. Perhaps the series resistance was just too high for the compressor to reliably start up.
Compressors pull a hefty surge of current when they start up, particularly if they try to restart immediately after they are shut off (before the pressure bleeds down). You may have seen this with the lights briefly dimming while the compressor tries to start, and then you hear a click from its thermal limiter as it shuts off power for a minute or so. If there was a momentary power interruption while the compressor was running, your fridge could have gotten into this mode. But that might have caused the AF120 fuse to pop.
Jeff
Hi guys sorry it took so long to get back been out of town. But no it definitely wasen't the normal defrost cycles. I have one of those infrared thermometers and it gave me a reading of 50 degrees F plugged it back in and an hour later it was cooling properly. But I was thinking the same thing that the fuse should have blown but it didn't. And there's another thing the blower motor is sometimes still making a funny sound it definitely wasen't doing this before. I don't know what happen but I'm really upset because I just had this unit fixed had to replace the defrost heater it was accumulating ice on the freezer side and before I used the AF120 the refrigerator after being serviced was running perfectly. Going to use my Kill A Watt type device to measure the maximum current my freg puts out maybe it was exceeded and caused this. Any idea's???? Thanks!
Tom j.
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Sorry to read about your situation Tom. I've had my fridge running on the same fiilter for about 6 months now w/out any problems. As I had mentioned earlier, I also have another AF120 on my clothes washer, again, w/out any problems.
Thanks for your feedback I'm really glad yours is working for you! I was thinking about keeping it and trying it on something else but I've lost faith in it now, got a letter from the manufacturer that I think you guys will find interesting and will post it entirety. Thanks to all that gave me a hand on this.
Tom j.
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Say could anyone recommend a tester for line noise, what would be a good one hopefully at a reasonable cost. Thanks
Tom j.
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Say could anyone recommend a tester for line noise, what would be a good one hopefully at a reasonable cost. Thanks
Tom j.
YES!
Jeff Volp is in the final stages of developing a X10 signal level meter which will also indicate quantitave levels of noise in the X10 spectrum.
http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=18408.0
I have one and love it. It provides far more information than the old ELK MS1 meter which has been an X10 consumer grade testing standard until they quit making it a couple of years back. ACT also makes a a professional grade X10 signal level/noise tester but is very expensive ($400).
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FIRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
FOLKS BE CAREFUL WITH THESE PUPPIES! I HAD TO USE FIRE EXTINGUISHER LAST WEEKEND TO PUT OUT THE FIRE WHEN MY X10 XPPF BURST INTO FLAMES!
THEY HAVE NO FUSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It charred the 2x4 wall stud by the outlet before I got the flames out!
This is the X10 unit (brown) sold by X10. Says UL listed on it.
I can send pictures of the damage and the destroyed unit to anyone interested - just let me know.
What happened is I had right close to a 5 amp load on it (3 sets of 8' florescent bulbs) and when the eagle eye saw me enter the warehouse, it turned on the 15amp wall switch, turning on the lites just like a hundred times before (added this filter 1 month ago). I headed for the refridge in the back to get a beer and heard crackling. I turned around and saw smoke rolling out of the filter then 2 seconds later flames about 12" high! They did not go out. By the time I grabbed a fire extinguisher 5 seconds later it had already charred the wall stud the outlet is mounted on.
The chokes inside the unit are wound on combustible plastic cores and when they overheated they caught fire. The pcb is totally gone around the male plug pins and the case of the xppf is melted where it also burned.
This is one of around 20 I have all over our house, office, garage here. Have probably 10 more at another office across town. I believe this is the highest amperage load I have on any (110w bulbs x 3 x 2 = 5.5 amps or so - I may stick clamp on ammeter on and verify this).
Wondering why the fuse did not pop before the chokes (3 total, wound with looks like #18 solid copper wire) overheated and burst into flames, I took another one apart. Wow! It's chokes have the varnish bubbled from overheating AND THE PLASTIC CORE MELTED ON ALL 3! Again, no fuse!
So I guess the moral of the story is consider thoughtfully before using the X10 xppf models instead of the nice smarthome fused models. I am going to ebay right now to buy 30 smart home units to replace all mine! Hate to say it, but I got a firesale on my 30 or so xppf units - anyone want to make me an offer ?? javascript:void(0);javascript:void(0);
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actually I was wrong above; the chokes are not melted down inside this unit but the pcb is gone around the 2 male plug pins - must have been a bad solder joint and it heated until the pcb burned away. the 2nd unit I looked at that was still 'good' still had the chokes melted down inside as stated above. Bottom line remains: no fuse means chance of fire.
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Thank you for the heads up. Hopefully it may spare others the problems you had.
I would measure the current and take into account. Starting surges and the fact that the lights may have high instantaneous current spikes not seen on a standard ampmeter. I have seen current spikes when testing some fluorescent bulbs. Maybe the instantaneous spikes overheated the coils. The average current maybe 5 amps on a meter but the instantaneous current peaks maybe higher than that.
I doubt the fuse or breaker for the branch circuit would trip. It is designed to hold for the whole circuits rating plus starting surges for things like motors.
The Smarthome FilterLincs and the ACT AF120 both have time delay fuses in them, but have a much heavier coil to carry the current.
http://home.comcast.net/~gafield/family/gary/electronics/X10_Filter.pdf
Looked into one of mine and yes it looked like #14 wire on the Yellow coil form. Also in a look at both the 5 and 10 amp model. Only the fuse size seemed to be different. ;D
I would go for the 10 Amp FilterLincs as I feel there was more than five amps through the filters. Though I tend to use conservative safety margins.
I had a few early Insteon ApplianceLincs start smoking. Not a nice thing to see or smell.
I found a schematic of a Leviton 6288 and it also didn't show any fuse.
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THEY HAVE NO FUSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THX mike. A helpful from me.
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I have used the XPPF at its rated load. They will get warm and start to stink. So, I recommend not pushing them to their maximum rating.
There may be an entirely different issue here. Your fluorescent light ballasts are not resistive loads. If those lamps have the older inductive ballasts, the out of phase "imaginary" current must also be considered. Since you don't have to pay for that, it is not represented in the wattage consumption on the label. However, the utility company must deliver it, and that current does pass through the filter inductors.
If those lamps have electronic ballasts, they may have a power supply that conducts only near the peak of the AC waveform. Heating is a function of the square of the current. If the conduction angle is relatively small as it is in a capacitor input rectifier, the heating is significantly higher than for the same amount of average current distributed across the waveform.
The bottom like is that the XPPF filters work well, but should not be pushed near their maximum rating. This is especially true when powering reactive and electronic loads.
Jeff
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Jeff your findings on the XPPF forced me :' to try one myself.
With a 500 watt resistive load [200 Watt and a 300 Watt Incadescent Bulbs]. Mine got warm and started to smell like the coils maybe getting warm. I had about a 1.24 Volt AC drop from Input to Output and the current was 4.1 Amp AC. Gee that is about 5 watts of power for the coils in the filter.
The wire on the coils looks like maybe #20. My FilterLinc has #14 in it coils.
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Did another test with a XPPF and a 600 Watt Load. 300W; 200W and 100W light bulbs.
4.87 Amps AC ;575 watts as measured with my Kill-A-Watt tester.
In fifteen minutes the XPPF got very warm and smelled. Disassembled it and L1 and L2 coils [schematic of Leviton 6288 version of the filter] got hot enough to start deforming the plastic bobbin it was wound on. This was a resistive light bulb load.
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We know that the Chebyshev filter is used to separate one band of frequencies from another. And I think they cannot match the performance of another filter. The dehumidifier can take over because the basement needs a controller for the noise filter. SEO Services (http://computerseo.com/)