X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: Dave4720 on October 12, 2011, 11:56:34 AM
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I have several Stick-A-Switch units (SS13A), and they all are VERY inconsistent on operation. The first poke of a particular button of any Stick-A-Switch is highly unlikely to work. Sometimes the second or third press will work. I just have no faith in the switch - I can’t walk by and press and walk on - I have to wait for the controlled device to respond, and when it does not, I press again.
Interesting enough, my 2-button remotes and 4-button credit card remotes and palm pads always work just fine.
I have both RR501 (one house) and V572 RF Transceiver (other house). It’s only the Stick-A-Switch units that have issues.
Does the Stick-A-Switch have a history of not working that well? Any insights?
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They are reported to have poor RF range.
I have seen nothing on the buttons themselves being intermittent.
Here is one passive antenna idea used by some.
http://www.davehouston.net/X10_feng_shui.htm
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My Stick-a-switch in the Breakfast Room has lost its housecode (F) and gone back to (A) THREE TIMES so out came the battery and the SS13A went in the trashcan (the real one) and a new one ordered.
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They are reported to have poor RF range.
Ok ... as opposed to 2-button remotes or 4-button credit card remotes?
I will put 4-button credit card remote in same position as S-A-S and see if I get better results. I do notice a trimmer cap on the S-A-S board ... perhaps one needs to align the transmitter to the exact frequency. Maybe time to pull out the spectrum analyzer.
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They are reported to have poor RF range.
Ok ... as opposed to 2-button remotes or 4-button credit card remotes?
I will put 4-button credit card remote in same position as S-A-S and see if I get better results. I do notice a trimmer cap on the S-A-S board ... perhaps one needs to align the transmitter to the exact frequency. Maybe time to pull out the spectrum analyzer.
When you press the button on the S-A-S, does the light blink? If not, it might be a bad contact under the button, or a weak battery.
If the light responded just fine, then it might be an issue due to the poor transmit range, coupled with the poor RF reception range of the CM15A. In that case, a different remote, a CM15A antenna mod, a S-A-S reflector antenna, or maybe even repositioning the S-A-S might help.
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My Stick-a-switch in the Breakfast Room has lost its housecode (F) and gone back to (A) THREE TIMES so out came the battery and the SS13A went in the trashcan (the real one) and a new one ordered.
Did you test to make sure the battery was still good? The weak battery might have been causing it to reset to housecode A.
It could have also been caused by bent or dirty battery contacts.
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When you press the button on the S-A-S, does the light blink? If not, it might be a bad contact under the button, or a weak battery.
If the light responded just fine, then it might be an issue due to the poor transmit range, coupled with the poor RF reception range of the CM15A. In that case, a different remote, a CM15A antenna mod, a S-A-S reflector antenna, or maybe even repositioning the S-A-S might help.
Did you test to make sure the battery was still good? The weak battery might have been causing it to reset to housecode A.
It could have also been caused by bent or dirty battery contacts.
I should have been more detailed. With two separate units, the red light blinks fine. Although it takes two or more presses, they will eventually work, so I know the codes are still retained. I have also changed batteries. We're also talking RR501 and V572 receivers, no CM15A.
It's almost ... as if ... the oscillator does not instantly come up right on frequency. There’s no heating going on here, so it’s not like it’s temperature drift.
Here are some high tech questions: If one holds the button, the LED continues to flash. Does the command get transmitted each flash? Or multiple times as the button is held? Is it AM or FM modulation? If the command gets transmitted only once, and the continuous LED flash is just for operator fuzzies, then perhaps the oscillator start-up and subsequent command encoding occurs before things are really stabilized, and the command (to the receiver) gets corrupted. Maybe that’s why a subsequent press most times works. If the command repeats, then you’d think the subsequent commands would be stable.
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SS13A:
Push Button one single LED Flash:
R: A1 - 3:32:06 PM 10/12/2011
R: AOn - 3:32:06 PM 10/12/2011
Hold Button 2 LED Flash more than one time:
R: A2 - 3:32:11 PM 10/12/2011
R: AOn - 3:32:11 PM 10/12/2011
R: A2 - 3:32:12 PM 10/12/2011
R: AOn - 3:32:12 PM 10/12/2011
R: A2 - 3:32:13 PM 10/12/2011
R: AOn - 3:32:13 PM 10/12/2011
R: A2 - 3:32:14 PM 10/12/2011
R: AOn - 3:32:15 PM 10/12/2011
R: A2 - 3:32:15 PM 10/12/2011
R: AOn - 3:32:16 PM 10/12/2011
R: A2 - 3:32:16 PM 10/12/2011
R: AOn - 3:32:17 PM 10/12/2011
You can find schematics and frequency charts on the FCC web site. In the Details Tab.
Grantee: B4S
Product code SS13A
http://transition.fcc.gov/oet/ea/fccid/
http://www.davehouston.net/rf.htm
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It's almost ... as if ... the oscillator does not instantly come up right on frequency. There’s no heating going on here, so it’s not like it’s temperature drift.
No, that's not it. The receiver has both AGC and ATC (Automatic Threshold Control) and with weak signals, such as these switches, it needs 2-3 copies of the 5 copies sent with each button press to acquire a copy that it can decode and act on.
You can see it illustrated in the third 'scope screenshot here...
- http://davehouston.org/rf-noise.htm
Those who suggested improving the antenna were right on target.
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If the SAS is new. It could be a different design than the older ones.
X10 was in the process of redesigning things with more modern parts.
You may even find a Saw device for the frequency determination.
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My Stick-a-switch in the Breakfast Room has lost its housecode (F) and gone back to (A) THREE TIMES so out came the battery and the SS13A went in the trashcan (the real one) and a new one ordered.
Did you test to make sure the battery was still good? The weak battery might have been causing it to reset to housecode A.
It could have also been caused by bent or dirty battery contacts.
The battery was a month old, and the contacts were fine. It would go back to housecode A with no cause except itself.
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Ok, what about this …
My S-A-S are always firing a macro, ‘cause what I’m controlling is not three codes in series.
Did you say the S-A-S sends out multiple transmissions of the same code? Then could my CM11A be stepping on itself?
Maybe time to get out the XTBM …
Hey Jeff, anyway to mod the XTBM to read phone-jack commands from the V572 receiver directly?
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Did you say the S-A-S sends out multiple transmissions of the same code? Then could my CM11A be stepping on itself?
The CM11A doesn't receive RF. Whatever does transceive your RF to PLC is smart enough to only send one PLC command in the 500-600mS it takes for the 5-6 copies of the RF. Besides, it takes longer for the PLC command than the multiple copies of the RF.
Try the antenna suggestions and be done with all this needless speculation!
The Stick-a-Switches were some of the worst X-10 RF devices in terms of signal strength. The coat-hanger fix was measured as a 10dB omnidirectional increase by a skeptical engineer who had access to an RF lab.
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Did you say the S-A-S sends out multiple transmissions of the same code? Then could my CM11A be stepping on itself?
The CM11A doesn't receive RF. Whatever does transceive your RF to PLC is smart enough to only send one PLC command in the 500-600mS it takes for the 5-6 copies of the RF. Besides, it takes longer for the PLC command than the multiple copies of the RF.
Try the antenna suggestions and be done with all this needless speculation!
The Stick-a-Switches were some of the worst X-10 RF devices in terms of signal strength. The coat-hanger fix was measured as a 10dB omnidirectional increase by a skeptical engineer who had access to an RF lab.
I use RR501 Transceivers as they are "polite" and both are within 8 feet of the Stick-a-Switch.
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My 501 is within 5 feet of the ss13, and I'm starting to have problems. I'm guessing it's the power cell failing. SS13 is a great idea in theory, but it's less in practice.
I'm seriously contemplating cutting a handi-box into the wall and going with a keypadlinc. Never ever had a problem with one of those.
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I use RR501 Transceivers as they are "polite" and both are within 8 feet of the Stick-a-Switch.
I'm not sure what that "politeness" buys you. I've never seen a problem with multiple TM751s and they also co-exist with the RR501.
Very old TM751s (>12 yrs, IIRC) waited for a rising ZC to send PLC. If two were on different phases and transmitted the same PLC in response to the same RF, they would collide 100% of the time but newer ones send PLC on the next ZC so those on opposite phases are in phase for PLC.
Another potential problem is with TM751s and motion detectors, especially when two or more motion detectors react to the same motion or the continuation by the same mover but, in my view, that's a problem with motion detector placement.
One caveat is that I do not recall ever testing with an original CM15A in the system. While I have two CM15As both underwent brain transplants shortly after I received them and they have no problems co-existing with other transceivers.
And, 8' may well be beyond the RF range of a Stick-a-Switch - the only one I had could only do about 10' and, even that, required it be at a right angle to the receiver - edge-on was nearly useless. With a passive radiator, range was improved to 30+ feet.
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Well… rather interesting.
I glean that the S-A-S is the weak link. I want to understand the particulars - which I don’t consider needless speculation - before I throw antenna mods around.
I have a 2-button remote that I can turn on office lights at work from across the building, to a RR501 under a metal desk! When the S-A-S does not work, one instance is with a V572 (VERY good product, can’t see it needing antenna mods) 10’ away, and another instance is with a RR501 10’ away.
And again, palm pad, 2-buton remotes, and 4-button cc remotes do not have this issue. Sounds like the ‘talker’, not the ‘listener’.
Interesting also, as commented in a post, is in both cases, the S-A-S is “on edge” towards the receivers.
Interesting also, as commented in a post, is in one case, the room has a motion sensor. What if the motion sensor is ‘talking’ at the same time I press the S-A-S to ‘talk’? And I would normally enter the room and press the S-A-S near the same timeframe. (In this case, the receiver is the V572). Would the RF transmissions step on each other?
I will try using a 4-button cc remote in the same positions and see if I get better consistency. But if it’s the motion sensor clashing with the S-A-S, then antenna mods - nor other transmitters - aren’t the answer.
The XPT may be somewhat a solution. In one case, I have the S-A-S next to an existing single width wall switch. I could hog out and replace with a double width box and add in a XPT, but that makes it more a permanent install.
Good inputs …
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What if the motion sensor is ‘talking’ at the same time I press the S-A-S to ‘talk’? And I would normally enter the room and press the S-A-S near the same timeframe. (In this case, the receiver is the V572). Would the RF transmissions step on each other?
Yes.
The exception is if one transmitter is considerably closer to the receiver, or if one transmitter is considerably more powerful (probably not the case in comparing ERP of the S-a-S to a credit card remote) the receiver may maintain "capture" of the stronger signal. The solid rule of thumb is: two transmitters on the same frequency, equal in power, transmitting in the same area, to a single receiver, will definitely beat against each other.
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I glean that the S-A-S is the weak link. I want to understand the particulars - which I don’t consider needless speculation - before I throw antenna mods around.
The suggested antenna mods consist of two pieces of coat hanger wire and a few pieces of tape.
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It's been quite some time (4-5 years) since I played with these so my details may be off.
The motion sensor will transmit when it senses motion and then be quiet for some (unrecalled detail) period. If it sends 5 copies of the RF code, that takes about 500mS - it's not likely to be transmitting at the same time you press the switch unless you move faster than Speedy Gonzalez.
I have no idea about the innards of the transceiver in question but it surely has some method for not sending multiple PLC signals - the simplest method (which I used in the DIY BX24-AHT, which predated this companies transceivers and for which I published the source code) merely ignored further RF transmissions for 600mS (some transmitters always send 6 copies).
Dimly Recalled Detail: I had the Stick-a-Switch mounted on my BR door with a motion sensor in the hallway about 4 feet away. The motion detector always registered motion and the switch always worked (at least after adding the passive antenna). Because of my spinal cord injury, I need light in order to walk - my feet have very little sensation so my brain needs to know where they are in order to tell them where to go - I had palmpads or switches in most rooms so I could control lights fore and aft.
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Well, I did some testing.
I put an antenna on a cable TV SLM tuned to 310 MHz, just to see relative signal level differences.
The S-A-S measured fairly low. Strangely, the 4-position cc remote did not show a reading at all. However, the 2-button keychain remote stomped! That makes sense, as it is intended to turn on lights or whatever from the driveway.
I put a 4-position cc remote in two positions where S-A-S’s have been intermittent. The cc remotes never failed to work.
My conclusion, as far as signal strength goes, is the S-A-S is very marginal, as others have posted, and the 4-position cc remote is better. And the 2-button keychain remote is by far the most powerful.
So I will change my S-A-S installations to 4-position cc remote somehow, and deal with the labeling issue, or somehow Frankenstein the S-A-S switchplate and buttons to the 4-position cc remote circuitry.
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I use RR501 Transceivers as they are "polite" and both are within 8 feet of the Stick-a-Switch.
I'm not sure what that "politeness" buys you. I've never seen a problem with multiple TM751s and they also co-exist with the RR501.
Very old TM751s (>12 yrs, IIRC) waited for a rising ZC to send PLC. If two were on different phases and transmitted the same PLC in response to the same RF, they would collide 100% of the time but newer ones send PLC on the next ZC so those on opposite phases are in phase for PLC.
Another potential problem is with TM751s and motion detectors, especially when two or more motion detectors react to the same motion or the continuation by the same mover but, in my view, that's a problem with motion detector placement.
One caveat is that I do not recall ever testing with an original CM15A in the system. While I have two CM15As both underwent brain transplants shortly after I received them and they have no problems co-existing with other transceivers.
And, 8' may well be beyond the RF range of a Stick-a-Switch - the only one I had could only do about 10' and, even that, required it be at a right angle to the receiver - edge-on was nearly useless. With a passive radiator, range was improved to 30+ feet.
What I said about the RR501 being "polite" is it waits until the line is clear before sending signals, which the TM751 does not do, it sends signals immediately.
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I put an antenna on a cable TV SLM tuned to 310 MHz, just to see relative signal level differences. The S-A-S measured fairly low.
Measure again after taping a passive radiator (18" of coathanger wire ) above or beside the S-A-S.
- http://davehouston.org/X10_feng_shui.htm
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I put an antenna on a cable TV SLM tuned to 310 MHz, just to see relative signal level differences. The S-A-S measured fairly low.
Measure again after taping a passive radiator (18" of coathanger wire ) above or beside the S-A-S.
- http://davehouston.org/X10_feng_shui.htm
Ok, let's say I do this ... let's say I get better results ... does that mean I need to plan to nail a 18" coat hanger on my wall ... or is this just for academic investigation?
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Ok, let's say I do this ... let's say I get better results ... does that mean I need to plan to nail a 18" coat hanger on my wall ... or is this just for academic investigation?
rofl
I have improved the TX range of a S-a-S with very small gage solid conductor wire (26, 28 ga) which might not be objectionable, depending on location. I have never tried flat copper foil wire, but it could be painted easily. WAF might be higher as opposed to a CC remote attached to wall.....I'm just sayin'...
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-:) Now if someone would make a wireless X10 switch like this one is for Insteon.
http://www.smarthome.com/2444A2WH8/RemoteLinc-2-INSTEON-Wireless-Keypad-8-Scene/p.aspx
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-:) Now if someone would make a wireless X10 switch like this one is for Insteon.
Pricey - like most Insteon gear but with some nice features, especially the rechargeable battery and the 50' range (if accurate).
At least the USB adapter for recharging is reasonable @ $5.
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-:) Now if someone would make a wireless X10 switch like this one is for Insteon.
http://www.smarthome.com/2444A2WH8/RemoteLinc-2-INSTEON-Wireless-Keypad-8-Scene/p.aspx
Yeah, I loved it also. Perhaps if we talked real sweet to Jeff or Dave H...ya think? :'
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Yeah, I loved it also. Perhaps if we talked real sweet to Jeff or Dave H...ya think? :'
Nah, even sweet talk is cheap. Required FCC testing for RF transmitters costs a few thousand so it's unlikely you'll find any takers.
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Since this topic is for the SS13A "Stick-a-Switch" I got my new one today and it's an improvement over the older ones. It was easy to set the housecode from A to F and the switches are much easier to use, just a touch (not a "push) turns the lights on and off.
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Since this topic is for the SS13A "Stick-a-Switch" I got my new one today and it's an improvement over the older ones. It was easy to set the housecode from A to F and the switches are much easier to use, just a touch (not a "push) turns the lights on and off.
Is the range any better than this...
- http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=9424.0
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Range is not a problem with my two SS13As. Both are less 5 feet from the RR501s that get the signals.
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So I put a 4-position cc switch (KR22A) where the Stick-A-Switch was, and it has been working flawlessly. I marked the rubber push buttons with a short code regarding their function.
I also noticed the KR22A has two stacked batteries (6V), whereas the Stick-A-Switch only has a single battery. That may be why the Stick-A-Switch has such short range.
Anyway, another issue solved. Thanks for all who contributed.
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I also noticed the KR22A has two stacked batteries (6V), whereas the Stick-A-Switch only has a single battery. That may be why the Stick-A-Switch has such short range.
OK who is game to crank the supply voltage on a SS up to 6V to see what happens? ...I guess it is really moot since there is no way to add an extra 3V with out making the "Slim Line" switch a "fat line" switch.
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So I put a 4-position cc switch (KR22A) where the Stick-A-Switch was, and it has been working flawlessly. I marked the rubber push buttons with a short code regarding their function.
I also noticed the KR22A has two stacked batteries (6V), whereas the Stick-A-Switch only has a single battery. That may be why the Stick-A-Switch has such short range.
OK who is game to crank the supply voltage on a SS up to 6V to see what happens? ...I guess it is really moot since there is no way to add an extra 3V with out making the "Slim Line" switch a "fat line" switch.
If a 6 volt battery the same size as the one supplied for the SS is made (about the size of a penny) it might work.