X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: dmq400 on February 19, 2013, 07:00:36 AM
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Have had a X10 sys w/3 pad rocker switch with a fourth overall dimmer switch hooked up to 3 livingroom lights....about 10 yrs now. I always hated the slow response to the light actually going on or off when activating the switch...but have lived with it. System seems to be slower and slower to react and now the worst thing is that just about every nite at least one and most of the time all 3 go on in the middle of the night. It even does it without the battery in the switch pad. The only changes which I can think might be effecting this is periodic new wifi routers, cordless phone sys, or wireless printer installed. For sure though it did NOT start happening exactly when one of those devices were upgraded/changed. Bulbs were not suddenly changed, and yes there is the standard "thunk" sound
Is it just time to install a new/smarter sys? Much thanks!
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You mentioned a battery in the 3 pad rocker style switch. So it is a Stick-A-Switch with no AC power. Sending RF commands to a transceiver. That then sends the X10 power line commands to your other devices.
Do you have a TM751 or RR501 receiving the RF commands from the Stick-A-Switch?
Do you have any phase coupling between the two incoming power lines. Found in most homes?
http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm
http://www.act-remote.com/PCC/uncle.htm
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Did your utility company recently install a smartmeter?
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No on the smart meter. We do have one but it was installed a yr. ago and the power co. says they have not changed anything since it was put in.
Brian - I have no idea what you are talking about (sorry) and all I can say is that it worked fine for almost 10 yrs, bought the whole sys from one vendor and do have a filtering device (I think) that came with it? Thanks for some feedback though
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Do you use X10 in any way? To use a "Stick-a-Switch" you have to have a TM751 or RR501 receiving the RF commands from the Stick-A-Switch to send powerline signals to lamps.
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Can't we just assume if it was working fine for 10 yrs that I MUST have a TM751 or RR501 as you guys claim? Do they go bad? Does it matter which one? (i.e. does
one "go bad" more often then the other?
I'll get the no's tonight. Thanks
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Can't we just assume if it was working fine for 10 yrs that I MUST have a TM751 or RR501 as you guys claim? Do they go bad?
Yes. The thunk you mentioned is most likely is coming from one of them. This may help you understand the problem.
- http://davehouston.org/noise.htm
I would still be suspicious of the smartmeter. Which electric utility? Where are you located?
Are there any motors that operate mostly at night? Baby monitor?
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The "thunk" is coming from the device that is plugged into the outlet (tranciever module MODEL PAT01 X10 Pro N Las Vegas, Nv)
-We are in Vt and it's Green Mountain Power Co.
- No on any special night operating motors and NO on baby monitor
Thanks
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Do you hear the thunk whenever the lights turn on in the middle of the night?
How close are the nearest neighbors?
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Closest neighbor at least 500 ft away....and they are new..ish vacation home people with ongoing semi renovation work. Pretty far though, no?
Can't tell about the thunk in the middle of the nite. Tucked away in an upstairs bedroom with the door closed, window open, under lots of covers (not my preference, but what one puts up with to keep the marriage in harmony ;-).
Again, thanks for sticking with this for me!
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Unexplained activation is most frequently caused by spikes on the powerline. I've never seen reports of transceivers (TM751, RR501) being vulnerable. Motors, old style magnetic ballasts for fluorescent lights, etc. are frequent culprits. One type of smartmeter (and only in one region around Cincinnati) causes random activations and I suspect its due to the same design flaw in some X10 switches as it puts very high amplitude signals on the powerline which may function in a similar way to spikes. Noisy CFL power supplies have also been blamed for similar events.
You might check to see whether any neighbors who share your distribution transformer use X10.
Brownouts (i.e. momentary power dips) can also cause X10 switches/modules to reset, resulting in unplanned activation.
Things like this are extremely difficult to trackdown without test equipment so any details you can provide on your exact setup such as switch/module, computer controllers, etc. model numbers may be helpful.
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dmq400
$0.02
You have the X10 Pro version of the RR501, which is a "polite" transceiver. Meaning, when it gets an RF command to transceive to the homes powerline, it checks the powerline for other X10 commands and transmits to powerline when it is clear. This increasing lag time might be from a noise maker or constant chatter from or your Smart Meter with the PAT01 hesitating for the line to clear up. And as dhouston and Brian points out, Smartmeter communication is known to morph into X10 commands that turn on and off X10 modules. You may (still) have a SmartMeter problem. Like dhouston said, without test equipment (like the XTBM Signal/Noisemeter from JV Digital Engineering) it is difficult to narrow down.
As last ditch effort, you might try changing House Code and moving the PAT01 to different outlets..
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One type of smartmeter (and only in one region around Cincinnati) causes random activations
Being a Duke Energy customer, I seem to remember Duke playing with ethernet over powerline in the Cincinnati/eastern Kentucky area a few years back. I wonder if that exacerbated the X10 problem(?).
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Being a Duke Energy customer, I seen to remember Duke playing with ethernet over powerline in the Cincinnati/eastern Kentucky area a few years back. I wonder if that exacerbated the X10 problem(?).
I'm not sure it was Duke who was testing broadband over powerline although some testing was done in the eastern suburbs of Cinicinnati using their infrastructure by a company called Current Communication. I cannot recall seeing any complaints although there were complaints from hams (in other regions). There were several different technologies used by different entities in different regions and some were said to radiate from the powerlines although I do not recall hearing about any smoking gun. The frequencies used are much, much higher so should not cause interference with X10.
- http://cincinnaticomm.com/OurCompany/CompanyProfile/
Duke tested smartmeters starting 5-6 years ago in Fort Mitchell, KY (where I live - about 5 mi south of Cincinnati) before rolling them out to other regions. I have seen no problems. Nearly all of the problems seem to be in the northern suburbs of Cincinnati. I suspect they have implemented the same meters differently there. They have several options for communication.
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...Smartmeter communication is known to morph into X10 commands that turn on and off X10 modules.
Actually, I strongly disagree. I doubt there are many instances where noise somehow is transformed into legitimate X10 commands. I've tested that theory by sending a Smarthome made X10 module to one of the victims who set it to the same address as the affected switch. The Smarthome module was immune. I suggested that another victim buy the Smarthome modules that were on sale at the time and he saw the same thing. So, it would appear to be an X10 design flaw that is at fault. I suspect it is related to the spike vulnerability acknowledged by X10.
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...Smartmeter communication is known to morph into X10 commands that turn on and off X10 modules.
Actually, I strongly disagree. I doubt there are many instances where noise somehow is transformed into legitimate X10 commands.
My bad. I think this was an OGS (Old Geezer Syndrome) induced speculative construct of mine, based on feeble recollections of exchanges between you and Jeff in this long thread.
http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=22508.45
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I doubt there are many instances where noise somehow is transformed into legitimate X10 commands.
I agree with you that there aren't many. However, they do happen.
The J_Status_Request is an easy pattern for noise to simulate because it is 1110101010101010101010. If a noise source normally runs on alternate half cycles, it only has to slip in one extra noise burst when it is turned on to create that pattern. And when I was developing the XTBM-Pro, I traced random M13 commands to a new LED monitor, which I had neglected to plug into the filtered powerstrip. They were legitimate commands because I captured the decoded data strings on my digital storage scope.
I also have an appliance module in my office/lab set to P1 that I use for testing. It never triggers during the day, but occasionally switches at night when the set of 3 CFLs in my ceiling light (on the same circuit) is switched on. The noise from those three CFLs beats together and creates random data patterns that occasionally match valid X10 strings.
Jeff
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The reported middle-of-the-night events will almost always require two valid commands (address + on/off) and I think the odds against that are almost astronomical. For it to happen repeatedly with 2-3 different addresses, as the OP seems to be reporting, make it extremely improbable. For me, it doesn't make the usual suspect list.
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Wow, over my head now.
Can most of you agree that if I purchased a newer version of my simple X-10 system it would have better ability thru (hopefully) newer/updated technology to work these 3 simple lights?
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Wow, over my head now.
Can most of you agree that if I purchased a newer version of my simple X-10 system it would have better ability thru (hopefully) newer/updated technology to work these 3 simple lights?
No, not if you are still talking X10 technology.
Z-Wave which is RF based, yes.
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Can most of you agree that if I purchased a newer version of my simple X-10 system it would have better ability thru (hopefully) newer/updated technology to work these 3 simple lights?
No. X10 will continue to be plagued by noise sources and signal attenuators and there's little or nothing that can economically be done to change that. It dates to about 1976 and the basic power line control technology is still the same. Even very sophisticated (and expensive) frequency hopping power line control technology (Homeplug Command & Control) cannot compete with pure wireless control.
For a limited system such as yours, today, I would look at Z-Wave. In a year or two, it might be WiFi controlled LED lights. Only those with a sizable investment in X10 and old-timers who understand these issues should try to keep it going.
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No. X10 will continue to be plagued by noise sources and signal attenuators and there's little or nothing that can economically be done to change that.
Obviously, I can't agree with that statement.
Certainly, there are challenges to reliable X10 control. But adding AGC to the newer modules is big step in the right direction. Those of us who use Leviton switches with their "intellisense" AGC know how much better those switches work compared with the old X10 wall switches.
Jeff
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Hmmm, more conflicting advice. On another note, since I pulled the PAT01 out of the wall socket to read the numbers etc and then put it right back in the same outlet, after maybe 10 min, the lights have stayed OFF during the nite for the first time in maybe a month! I'll keep my fingers crossed.
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Well for the most part. We are all end users like your self and are sharing from our personal experiences. So opinions will vary.
If you had an X10 test meter like an XTBM. Finding your problems causes may have been easier.
Keep the PAT01 in mind. I had an RR501 X10 version of the transceiver. Do strange things after many years of use. In my case I was able to rebuild its failing power supply and it was again reliable.
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Ok. Thanks for the learning experience. 3 nites in a row now where everything seems to be working as before. All it took (at this point) was taking the PAT01
out of the wall socket for a few min.
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So back to the same old problem. I spoke with Smart home in Ca. today and they tell me that CFL lights are NOT recommended in a house with an X10 system. He claims that is my problem....in a nutshell, end of story. Especially dimmable ones Any further opinions?
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So back to the same old problem. I spoke with Smart home in Ca. today and they tell me that CFL lights are NOT recommended in a house with an X10 system. He claims that is my problem....in a nutshell, end of story. Especially dimmable ones Any further opinions?
CFLs make noise. They are an easy target. Sometimes their noise interferes with X10, sometimes not. I have some GE 13W and 27W CFLs and they do not generate noise in the same spectrum that X10 uses. They do not interfere with my X10 although I do have a high output repeater which helps if there is noise present.
This is first you mentioned CFLs. Do you have a lot?
It is rare (but not unheard of) that CFL noise will turn on or off X10 modules, which was your first complaint. The CFL noise is a block to X10 signals, so X10 modules either don't turn on when they should, or they don't turn off. The X10 command signal just doesn't get through.
It's an easy test. Turn on all your CFLs and see if X10 works throughout the house, or if any modules turn ON or OFF without being sent a command. If noise IS turning ON or OFF a module, it will likely be the very last module you sent a command to.
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Not all CFLs make noise.
I have some that make no noise but are signal suckers. As the manufacturer puts a capacitor across the power line to kill the CFLs electronic noise. Also kills the X10 signals. Some CFLs are 100% fine. I disassembled one and the manufacturer actually spent a few extra cents to add a small coil on the Line input. To isolate the capacitors effect on the power line signals.
X10 and Smarthome modules with Local Sensing Current. Can cause CFLs to pulse when Off and sometimes that would trigger them back On.
I have some LED bulbs that also make power line noise or signal suck both X10 and Insteon power line signals. While others are completely fine.
Name brand LED bulbs where much better in my tests and a good part of my house is now LED bulbs.
But with a CFL that maybe a few dollars over a LED bulb that is in fifteen or more dollar range. CFLs can be attractive price wise.
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While there have been many reports of them blocking X10, I do not recall any reports of noisy CFLs causing random ONs similar to these. However, noise of significant amplitude may act in the same manner as spikes (see below). Are the three lights in question CFLs?
It is difficult to offer meaningful suggestions without adequate information. The presence of CFLs was not known before and we still have no clue as to what switches or modules are in use. The stick-a-switch sends radio signals to the PAT01 which then sends powerline signals to whatever switches or modules actually control the three lights.
Normally, it takes about 100ms for the radio signal and about 400mS for an Address plus ON or OFF signal from the PAT01. If you were experiencing longer delays it could be due to...
1. a weaker radio signal. The switch sends 5-6 copies of the signal and the PAT01 has AGC which can respond to a weaker signal, perhaps needing 2-3 copies before it can discern a valid signal. X10 RF signals from these switches are problematic to begin with and are easily disturbed by changes in the environment.
2. powerline noise causing the PAT01 to delay its transmission.
Random events are usually caused by spikes or brownouts. Spikes can come from motors, old-style magnetic fluorescent ballasts, and some smartmeters. Brownouts are brief voltage dips that cause the microcontrollers in the switches/modules to reset which almost always results in them turning on when off.
It is highly unlikely that the stick-a-switch or PAT01 are involved in the random ONs. The likely culprits are whatever switches or modules actually control these lights being acted on by spikes or brownouts. Since you mention the neighbors have a vacation home, I would look into whether your electric utility may be allowing power to dip a bit in the middle of the night.
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While there have been many reports of them blocking X10, I do not recall any reports of noisy CFLs causing random ONs similar to these.
Check Reply # 21.
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While there have been many reports of them blocking X10, I do not recall any reports of noisy CFLs causing random ONs similar to these.
Check Reply # 21.
I don't believe Reply #21 said anything about random ONs. In another post, Jeff wrote he had seen J-Status Request (1110101010101010101010 PLC) and also wrote about M13(1110010101010101010101 PLC). No combination of those two commands explain this situation which requires multiple address commands and multiple ON commands if the random events are indeed being triggered by valid PLC commands.
I believe it is slightly more plausible that the tooth fairy (by now getting quite long in the tooth), while on her nightly rounds, is turning on the lights to compensate for her failing night vision (another consequence of aging) and then, some nights, forgetting to turn them off (yet another consequence of her advanced age). ;)
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Just reading thru so here is .02
I read a post from tuicemen that said motion detectors will start to send false triggers when the battery gets weak. So, by same token maybe OP should replace the battery in his remote control pad. Maybe would explain also why it takes longer to trigger devices from that remote as the signal is getting marginally weaker. His system is 10 years old - has he ever replaced the battery?
Secondly, if it isnt the battery maybe the buttons on the remote are getting sticky. After 10 years springs and contacts will deteriorate to where a replacement may be advisable.
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I read a post from tuicemen that said motion detectors will start to send false triggers when the battery gets weak. So, by same token maybe OP should replace the battery in his remote control pad. Maybe would explain also why it takes longer to trigger devices from that remote as the signal is getting marginally weaker. His system is 10 years old - has he ever replaced the battery?
Secondly, if it isnt the battery maybe the buttons on the remote are getting sticky. After 10 years springs and contacts will deteriorate to where a replacement may be advisable.
The security motion detectors, door/window switches do not send false triggers - they send a code to indicate the battery is low.
Also, in his first post...
...just about every nite at least one and most of the time all 3 go on in the middle of the night. It even does it without the battery in the switch pad.
Stick-a-switches have no mechanical springs.
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While there have been many reports of them blocking X10, I do not recall any reports of noisy CFLs causing random ONs similar to these.
Check Reply # 21.
I don't believe Reply #21 said anything about random ONs. I believe it is slightly more plausible that the tooth fairy (by now getting quite long in the tooth), while on her nightly rounds, is turning on the lights to compensate for her failing night vision (another consequence of aging) and then, some nights, forgetting to turn them off (yet another consequence of her advanced age). ;)
No it is now reply 16 due to deletions.
However let me quote: "I also have an appliance module in my office/lab set to P1 that I use for testing. It never triggers during the day, but occasionally switches at night when the set of 3 CFLs in my ceiling light (on the same circuit) is switched on. The noise from those three CFLs beats together and creates random data patterns that occasionally match valid X10 strings."
But I can't accept the tooth fairy explaination. The 2010 movie "Tooth Fairy" starring Dwayne Johnson clearly indicates that tooth fairies are many, are on a rotational work schedule, and have early retirement benefits. So I doubt any tooth faiies "are long on tooth" as you suggest...or was that a pun? :'
"
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No it is now reply 16 due to deletions.
However let me quote: "I also have an appliance module in my office/lab set to P1 that I use for testing. It never triggers during the day, but occasionally switches at night when the set of 3 CFLs in my ceiling light (on the same circuit) is switched on. The noise from those three CFLs beats together and creates random data patterns that occasionally match valid X10 strings."
But I can't accept the tooth fairy explaination. The 2010 movie "Tooth Fairy" starring Dwayne Johnson clearly indicates that tooth fairies are many, are on a rotational work schedule, and have early retirement benefits. So I doubt any tooth faiies "are long on tooth" as you suggest...or was that a pun? :'
I would have to see the codes, captured with a storage oscilloscope or logic analyzer before I believe it's the three CFL'S noise magically combining into a P1 followed by POn. Occam's Razor would seem to support the hypothesis that whatever mechanism causes modules to turn on or off in response to spikes or sags is at work here.
Remember that two of the Cincinnati area users who saw random events related to smartmeters found that Smarthome made modules set to the same address were immune - that would seem to deflate the random codes from noise hypothesis. It would be of interest to see whether a Smarthome made module set to P1 in Jeff's office/lab will exhibit the same behavior.
I had an LM465 that would turn off whenever a 50 year old fluorescent fixture was turned on. There was nothing on the powerline that could be see with an ESM1 nor with my storage scope. Changing to an LM14A (at the same address) cured the problem.
And, I was referring to the real tooth fairy - not some modernistic Hollywood revisionist interpretation. ::)
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I would have to see the codes, captured with a storage oscilloscope or logic analyzer before I believe it's the three CFL'S noise magically combining into a P1 followed by POn. Occam's Razor would seem to support the hypothesis that whatever mechanism causes modules to turn on or off in response to spikes or sags is at work here.
And, I was referring to the real tooth fairy - not some modernistic Hollywood revisionist interpretation. ::)
Yes, although If HCUC P1 was the last command on the system, it would only take a morphed "POn" to trigger the module. The last addressed module remaines in "command mode" until a different HCUC is transmitted, doesn't it?
?Hollywood misleads?? I think I need to sit down.
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I assumed - perhaps in error - that the CFLs are X10 operated and turning them on would clear any previously addressed module. IIRC, a function command clears things. For example, you can send A1, A2, A3 and then send AOn to all of them.
The X10dedTM Code documentation says...
Once addressed, a module responds to any command code. It becomes 'unaddressed' by the first 'address' message after a command, or by 'All Units Off'.
Anyway, P1=1110101001010110100101 and POn=1110101001010101011010. Not so easy to see how they are made from random noise that is somehow related to alternate cycles. And, it happens repeatedly? That really stretches credulity. I still vote for either an X10 design flaw (or the tooth fairy).
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I would have to see the codes, captured with a storage oscilloscope or logic analyzer before I believe it's the three CFL'S noise magically combining into a P1 followed by POn. Occam's Razor would seem to support the hypothesis that whatever mechanism causes modules to turn on or off in response to spikes or sags is at work here.
Remember that two of the Cincinnati area users who saw random events related to smartmeters found that Smarthome made modules set to the same address were immune - that would seem to deflate the random codes from noise hypothesis.
Dave, you've been talking about spikes for a long time. While that may cause some of the problems, I don't believe that is the cause of problems for either my office/lab or the Echelon smart meters that have been installed in the Cincinnati area.
I have watched the beat pattern from those CFLs create random decoded strings of 1’s and 0’s. In years of testing, that P1 appliance module has never turned on unexpectedly during the day. It has turned on several times at night while the CFLs were switched on. We have a whole house surge protector, and I have never seen any significant spikes on our powerline.
The fellow who helped develop the Smart Meter Rejection kit used a Tektronix spectrum analyzer to understand exactly what the Echelon Smart meter was doing. It produced very strong signals at two frequencies near the X10 passband. His X10 modules were switching at random when those signals were being transmitted. We added filters to block those transmissions, and the random actuations were eliminated.
The SmartHome devices use a different input stage compared with the X10 products. They may have narrower bandwidth or AGC to ignore the continuous powerline noise.
The theory of P1 being the last “arming” command might be valid in the case of that appliance module. Since I use the P housecode for testing, it is certainly possible that a P housecode was the last command sent on that circuit. It is isolated from the normal automation circuits, so those commands may not override the last P command sent. (The noisy CFLs are controlled by an ordinary wall switch.)
Jeff
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Jeff, does your Ocelot log these codes?
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Jeff, does your Ocelot log these codes?
No, that circuit is isolated from the normal house circuits to minimize interference when testing. And even if it was on the same circuit, the XTB-523 would ignore the noise because the AGC would raise the detection threshold above it.
An interesting test would be to use an X10 TW523 logging the commands on that circuit.
Note that it is a very rare occurrence, but I have seen it happen several times over the past few years.
Jeff
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An interesting test would be to use an X10 TW523 logging the commands on that circuit.
In all of the reports over the years of random events attributed to noise morphing into legitimate codes, I cannot recall a single instance where the codes were logged by an X10 PLC interface.
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Today I set up HomeVision to log X10 commands received on that test circuit while the CFLs were switched on. Most of them were the G16 ON and G16 OFF commands that cycle the hot water recirculation loop every 15 minutes. There was one instance where HV logged G15 instead of G16.
I had seen X10 commands morphed from one command to another on several occasions when doing noise testing, and this was just another one of them.
Now I suspect the unexpected P1 actuations while those CFLs were on might also have been due to morphed home automation commands. Since that is an isolated circuit for my testing, the incoming automation commands are not much above the noise generated by those CFLs. P1 is the only module on that circuit, so it is not unreasonable that once in a blue moon a command is morphed into that bit pattern.
Jeff