X10 Community Forum

🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Topic started by: steven r on November 20, 2006, 12:51:58 PM

Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption [2 of 2]
Post by: steven r on November 20, 2006, 12:51:58 PM
Or you can build your own like this guy.

http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/2005/09/how_to_make_your_own_powersqui.html


X10 modules power consumption [1 of 2] (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=10961.msg62614#msg62614)


[TTA Edit: Experiment to determine whether or not SPLITTING 'Highly-Viewed' / 'Highly-Replied' but currently INACTIVE threads from LONG, LONG AGO (I'm starting with ~2 years) into parts will allow current ACTIVE threads to appear in the Top 10 Topics (by Replies) section of the Statistics Center (aka More Stats) (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?action=stats) Page.

NOTE: I *WILL* address the <BR> problem...]
Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: vhoang on November 20, 2006, 01:30:48 PM
Some walgreen places have them also:
http://www.walgreens.com/store/product.jsp?CATID=100416&navAction=jump&navCount=0&id=prod2223152 : $12.99

You can froogle product id 100596, and get one for about $8 + shipping.

Or you can pick up parts (+ some googly eyes) and make your own squid:
http://www.delcollo.us/Blog/ICP/PowerSquid/PowerSquid.html

You should be able to pick up a five pack of liberators (power extension cables) for about $8 dollars as well.

Or get even more creative like: http://www.saltyzoo.com/PhotoAlbum/page.php?urlStr=/saltyzoo/180/equipment/010707


Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: vhoang on November 20, 2006, 01:33:10 PM
-- sheez....  That's what I get for walking away from the computer while in the middle of a message... someone beats me to the punch line...
Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: vhoang on November 25, 2006, 10:59:34 PM
So I picked up some led lights to see what was up.   This did not happen to me last christmas.  Sure enough they are so efficient they appear to be on when you shut them off because of the local control.   Leds are awesome.

From what I can tell from some research, the current leak is less than 1mA.   Can someone confirm?

It's just annoying to see the leds on in a totaly dark night that it gives the impression that you are wasting energy.

In anycase, a few other things I discovered was that if I plug a power transformer from a left over electronic device in parallel with the lights, it provides enough load to keep the led from turning on.   Hmmm...   For a second I feel a lot better that the lights weren't glowing...  And there's nothing on the other end of the wall wart... All of a sudden I feel better...

But wait..  :o  The energy is now converted to heat instead of light.    That's why laptop power supplies and other wall warts are warm even when nothing is plugged into the other end.

Plugging two X10 modules in series also gets rid of the faint glow.   But I still suspect the same current is still being passed down the line.   

At least my new LED's aren't "on" all the time now  ;)

I can live with it I suppose, since it's exactly the same as having a lamp connected into a module.  The fact that you don't see the lamp faintly on makes it fell like everything is ok.

So how much current is in local control?   That is the question....

Is it very very small?   I would suspect it is since it shouldn't take much to trigger on current fluxuation.



Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: Brian H on November 26, 2006, 07:38:27 AM
I measured different modules. X10 and Smarthome ones.
LM465 has a diode in the sensing circuit so 1.58 ma AC and 0.16 ma DC
AM486 has a diode also 2.37 ma AC 1.69 ma DC.
Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: vhoang on November 26, 2006, 09:58:35 AM
Thanks Brian...   So how do we complete this computation...

My 12V - 1A transformer does not have anything on the other end...

If it did it will at most be able to consume 12V * 1.69mA * (.001A/mA) = .0203W ?

W * (.001KW/W) * 24H/D * 365D * .17$(ca-rate)/KWH = Yearly cost of local sensing.

3 cents a year per module worst case? (10x less for the LM465)


I'm still a little puzzled by the computation..   My LEDs report it uses a Max of 0.87W/ft.
There is no transformer so I assume 120V.   Would I use the 120V value instead to calculate
maximum W?  10x my current value?

Finally, since my LEDs are connected in groups in series, I only count each set as one 120V source per module?


Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: Brian H on November 26, 2006, 11:45:17 AM
That current was only the local current from the outlet, not the whole total. I will do a few and get back.
 As pointed out. The power supplies in the modules are powerline derived and use a capacitor in series with the AC that can mess up many meters.
Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: Brian H on November 26, 2006, 02:05:35 PM
Input Current for some modules. Remember only the HC60RX; PH508 and CM15A have a power transformer. All the rest use a capacitor in the AC input that causes the AC voltage and Current to be out of phase and may cause my readings to be inaccurate.

LM465          32.23  ma AC
CM15A         10.62  ma AC
AM14A         45.8    ma AC
SL575           29.0   ma AC
LM15A            9.66  ma AC
RSC15A         39.4   ma AC
SH10A          40.7   ma AC
RR501         102.1   ma AC
FWLROD          9.5  ma AC
HC60RX         13.3   ma AC
TM751         104.6   ma AC
PF284            99.5   ma AC
UM506           54.8   ma AC
PH508           15.75  ma AC

FWLROD is a B&D Outdoor Weather Resistant Lamp Module that programs like a LM15A Socket Rocket and clunks like an appliance module. Like a box in the center of a 2' extension cord.
HC60RX  is an OEM for RCA CM11A
Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: JeffVolp on November 26, 2006, 04:36:17 PM
Quote
All the rest use a capacitor in the AC input that causes the AC voltage and Current to be out of phase and may cause my readings to be inaccurate.

That is exactly true.  If you just multiply current times voltage for these devices, you will get many times the actual power consumption.  Only a meter that integrates instantaneous voltage times current over each cycle will give you an accurate measurement.  Or you can build a simulation to see exactly what is going on.

Actual quiescent consumption of a lamp module is about half a watt.

Jeff
Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: TakeTheActive on November 26, 2006, 06:41:48 PM

...Only a meter that integrates instantaneous voltage times current over each cycle will give you an accurate measurement...

Like this:


? ;)
Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: vhoang on November 26, 2006, 08:15:46 PM
That doesn't appear to be battery driven... How is it going to pick up watt usage between a module in off mode and a strand of led lights if there is no power provided to it?   

It will likely just vaporize the local control current.
Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: ArdentGuy on December 14, 2006, 07:49:03 PM
Input Current for some modules. Remember only the HC60RX; PH508 and CM15A have a power transformer. All the rest use a capacitor in the AC input that causes the AC voltage and Current to be out of phase and may cause my readings to be inaccurate.

LM465          32.23  ma AC
CM15A         10.62  ma AC
AM14A         45.8    ma AC
SL575           29.0   ma AC
LM15A            9.66  ma AC
RSC15A         39.4   ma AC
SH10A          40.7   ma AC
RR501         102.1   ma AC
FWLROD          9.5  ma AC
HC60RX         13.3   ma AC
TM751         104.6   ma AC
PF284            99.5   ma AC
UM506           54.8   ma AC
PH508           15.75  ma AC

FWLROD is a B&D Outdoor Weather Resistant Lamp Module that programs like a LM15A Socket Rocket and clunks like an appliance module. Like a box in the center of a 2' extension cord.
HC60RX  is an OEM for RCA CM11A

These are the kinds of readings I am also seeing.  As far as requiring a meter that integrates instantaneous voltage times current over each cycle...I can't see how a capacitor in the AC circuit can cause a power factor error that causes a 600 percent error. 

In an installation that uses a dozen modules, having a 24/7 constant power drain of 30 to 50 watts may be acceptable.  But in an installation of 100's of modules, the power drain can become a burden.  Also, it's hard to justify spending the money on LED christmas lights if the control circuit (i.e. the X10 module) uses more power than the lights themselves.

I'm still looking for a way to disable the local control current as well as any other methods to reduce the power consumed by X10 modules.
Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: Charles Sullivan on December 15, 2006, 02:38:30 PM
Input Current for some modules. Remember only the HC60RX; PH508 and CM15A have a power transformer. All the rest use a capacitor in the AC input that causes the AC voltage and Current to be out of phase and may cause my readings to be inaccurate.

LM465          32.23  ma AC
CM15A         10.62  ma AC
AM14A         45.8    ma AC
SL575           29.0   ma AC
LM15A            9.66  ma AC
RSC15A         39.4   ma AC
SH10A          40.7   ma AC
RR501         102.1   ma AC
FWLROD          9.5  ma AC
HC60RX         13.3   ma AC
TM751         104.6   ma AC
PF284            99.5   ma AC
UM506           54.8   ma AC
PH508           15.75  ma AC

FWLROD is a B&D Outdoor Weather Resistant Lamp Module that programs like a LM15A Socket Rocket and clunks like an appliance module. Like a box in the center of a 2' extension cord.
HC60RX  is an OEM for RCA CM11A

These are the kinds of readings I am also seeing.  As far as requiring a meter that integrates instantaneous voltage times current over each cycle...I can't see how a capacitor in the AC circuit can cause a power factor error that causes a 600 percent error. 

If you hang a big capacitor by itself across a 120 VAC line you'll get a current reading that might lead you to the conclusion that a lot of power is being dissipated.  But the actual dissipation will be due only to the dielectric losses in the capacitor and the resistance of the leads, both of which are normally quite small at 60 Hz.  Under this situation the V x I product versus actual power error will probably far exceed 600%.

Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: Puck on December 15, 2006, 03:39:22 PM
Equivalent Series Resistance (ESR) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivalent_series_resistance)
Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: Brian H on December 15, 2006, 04:23:25 PM
I agree with all the added data.
Will a True RMS meter be better?
Got a nice shiny Fluke at work the other day and maybe if I beg enough can borrow it.  ::)
Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: Charles Sullivan on December 15, 2006, 05:10:17 PM
I agree with all the added data.
Will a True RMS meter be better?
Got a nice shiny Fluke at work the other day and maybe if I beg enough can borrow it.  ::)

A True-RMS voltmeter and/or ammeter won't help with power measurement unless you know that the load is purely resistive, which is not the case for these modules.

The Kill-A-Watt meter mentioned by Take The Active measures power, but is not accurate enough at the low power dissipation of the X10 modules to be very definitive.  (It's rated at 0.2% but that's of the full scale of 1875 Watts.)  However for want of anything better at hand I plugged a few devices into it and looked at both the Watts scale and the VA (Volts x Amps) scale:
   Device         Watts    VA
   AM468           0          3
   AM14A          0           6
   LM465           0          3
   TM751           1        11


Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: Brian H on December 15, 2006, 06:55:35 PM
Thanks for the added data. Scratch the new meter.
Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: JeffVolp on December 16, 2006, 02:48:12 PM
Quote
I'm still looking for a way to disable the local control current as well as any other methods to reduce the power consumed by X10 modules.

The local sense resistor in a lamp or appliance module is 330K.  That is less than 0.05 watt, or about 1 watt hour a day.  At average utility rates, disabling that will save you less than a nickle a year.

Again, lamp and appliance modules do not consume anywhere near the power that you think.  They have capacitive power supplies.  Most of the current is out of phase with the voltage, and is not real power.

Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: steven r on December 17, 2006, 01:25:56 AM
So bottom line is we can conclude that X10 modules don't add any significant amount to the electrical bill. Also it is likely that timed offs may save more electricity than the modules use.

Right?
Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: ArtClark on December 17, 2006, 06:06:16 AM
Maybe I am missing something here, but the biggest power waste seems to be (Using the AM486 schematic) the 2.2K that is connected across the switch of the relay through a diode.  Assuming a lamp load (Which is at the lowest resistance cold), this would be a direct resistive load that ISN't capacitive, inductive, or in any way hard to read.

For a rough approximation, 110V (RMS) / 2.3K = 47.8 ma  (Approx.)      Therefore, wattage:  .0478 * 110 / 2  = 2.63 Watts !

Obviously, this is a LOT of power and assumes a 100 Ohm Load in the Off state.  Also this doesn't count ANY of the power that the actual module draws, which I assume is around .5 Watt.    All this really means is, the original estimate of 3.5 watts is right on with a real-world load attached and the module OFF. 

I haven't tried nor tested what the results would be to disconnect the circuit that leads from that 2.2k to the chip and then severly increasing the value of the 2.2K but I assume that would help.

Anyone have comments or want to prove me wrong, please do.  One should learn something new each day, and I am ready to be taught.  I can see nothing wrong with this check and Most loads are at least 50W or so.  A 50 Watt load would still draw 1.8 watts plus the .5 for the circuit or around 2.3 Watt total.  Removing this Off current would cut the module consumption greatly, though I can't see myself going through the work required, though with the cost of electricty going up so fast, I may try this sooner than I would have thought.

Input please.  I am sure there are poeple out there with lots more knowledge than I and I could use some reassurance.  I only got around to tuning modules recently, and what an eye-opener that was.  This could be even better.

TIA.
Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: JeffVolp on December 17, 2006, 08:37:15 AM
Quote
So bottom line is we can conclude that X10 modules don't add any significant amount to the electrical bill. Also it likely that timed offs may save more electricity than the modules use.

Correct.
Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: Charles Sullivan on December 17, 2006, 08:48:15 AM
FWIW, I plugged a 100 Watt lamp into an AM486 appliance module and that into the Kill-A-Watt meter.  I verified that the lamp is indeed On when the module is On.  With the module Off the readings are the same as reported earlier with no load connected, e.g., 0 Watts, 3 VA.
 
I repeated the test with one of the very old "BSR" AM486 appliance modules with the brown enclosure and codewheels on the sides.  I  got the same readings.

As mentioned earlier, the accuracy of the Kill-A-Watt is not high enough at these low levels to be definitive, so I tried a crude test to offset the bias in the meter:  A 4 Watt incandescent night light plugged directly into the Kill-A-Watt measure 2 Watts, 4 VA.  The same night light plugged into an "On" appliance module measured 3 Watts, 6 VA.

Jeff Volp has performed enough experimentation and measurements on X10 that I would have no hesitation in accepting his statement that the quiescent power dissipation by these modules is very low and not worth worrying about.

Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: JeffVolp on December 17, 2006, 10:36:47 AM
UPDATE:  That 2.2K resistor on the schematic is WRONG.  It is actually 33K, so it dissipates just over .2 watt, or perhaps 2 cents a month in electricity.  What I thought was 2.2K in the brown BSR appliance module is actually the 220 limiting resistor in the power supply.  After tracing the wiring, I saw the sense resistor in the BSR module was actually 33K.  So I went back and measured the one in the newer module.  It is also 33K although it looks like red-red-red. END UPDATE

Just looking at the schematic, I agree with your numbers.  However, we must be missing something.  I ran the newer module open on my bench with a load connected but off.  I measured about 10C rise in the temperature of that resistor when it stabilized, so it can't be dissipating that much power.  I've burnt my fingers on enough devices over the years to know when they are pushing their limits.

I mentioned the 330K resistor because that is the part of the local sense circuit in a lamp module that does see the full line voltage when the module is off.  There is also that 100K across the triac to negative V.  While I'm not certain of its function, if it is used just for the local sense, eliminating it might save another penny a month on the electric bill.

If you wrap your hand around one of these X10 modules while off, you find they are barely above room temperature.  Compare that with a 4-watt nightlight.  Also, compare that with a lamp module when it is actually delivering 300 watts to a load.  The triac drop will be about a volt, so the module will be dissipating about 3 watts at that time.  Clearly these modules don't dissipate that much power when off.

Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: Brian H on December 17, 2006, 01:04:51 PM
I see you too have observed the resistor shown on some schematics is incorrect. I have also seen 33K.
Title: Re: X10 modules power consumption
Post by: ArtClark on December 17, 2006, 03:35:25 PM
Thanks for the info.  I had to open my mouth (Keyboard?) after looking at the print, because it made no sense to me that it could be a 2.2K.  Without opening a unit and actually checking (Which I should have done.) I had to just go by the print.  A 33K  (Orange Orange Orange) would draw nothing to even bother with.  IF it HAD really been a 2.2k, the entire 2.x watts would have been disapated by it, causing it to have been a LARGE power resistor.  (Could have been used as a little heater, too.)

Doing a few checks of my own, (Using my customers test equipment.....), there isn't enough power being used by the whole module and sense current to really bother with.  (As you guys have been saying!)  The amount of cost is easily going to be offset by power savings in shutting One lamp off at the right time, etc.

You guys also, once again, proved the old addage "When in doubt, Check it Out".  I really should have opened and checked the unit before typing, but thats all history now.  As for module heat, I was surprised that I could actually notice it.  AFter a few hours, if you are careful, you can notice that the module is a couple of degrees warmer than the enviroment, maybe.  I cannot imagine the total dissapation to be more than .5 Watt max, to give off this little heat.  (Again, as everyone already said.)

Thanks for all the info, and for waking me up to remember to Never fully trust a print.  In my work I never do, but here at home the rules got a little slack.  Hopefully I won't get caught slacking again.