X10 Community Forum

🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Topic started by: raccah on July 27, 2007, 06:22:12 PM

Title: Single gang Wireless decora style switch
Post by: raccah on July 27, 2007, 06:22:12 PM
Hello guys,

I wanted to know if there is a single gang decora look alike that is wireless and will work with the CM15A's RF antenna?  I am using X10 switches everywhere - but in the middle of the hallway (where the kitchen door into the hallway exists) I need a wireless switch.  I do not want one of those 4 button things - they are not wife approved  ;)

Any ideas?  Please I have searched the web - I am sure I missed it - but please help!

Thanks
Title: Re: Single gang Wireless decora style switch
Post by: HA Dave on July 27, 2007, 06:55:24 PM
I haven't seen any yet.

Could you have the light re-wired as a three-way?
Title: Re: Single gang Wireless decora style switch
Post by: steven r on July 27, 2007, 07:05:26 PM
Quote from: raccah on July 27, 2007, 06:22:12 PM
...I do not want one of those 4 button things - they are not wife approved...
Assuming it would work, their range is horrible, maybe you could meet the WAF if you came up with a use that she liked for the other buttons. ;)

Title: Re: Single gang Wireless decora style switch
Post by: KDR on July 27, 2007, 08:37:43 PM
You could take a look at the SS15A slimline stick up switch. It has a gold inlay around the 4 buttons and a bit more attractive. Here is a not so great picture (http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Image:SS15A.jpg) that doesn't do the gold insert justice. Here is a better picture I found on Automated Outlet's website (http://www.automatedoutlet.com/product.php?productid=6&cat=0&page=1)

(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)----KDR
Title: Re: Single gang Wireless decora style switch
Post by: raccah on July 27, 2007, 08:49:57 PM
First, neither of us really like the switch with 4 buttons, no matter what color it is.

Second, this is already a 3 way, with switches at the 2 ends of the hall.  We are looking to add something in the middle of the hall where there's no wiring at all.

Any other ideas?
Title: Re: Single gang Wireless decora style switch
Post by: Dan Lawrence on July 27, 2007, 10:07:52 PM
What you are trying to do is make a 3-way circuit into a 4-way circuit, which only a trained electrician should do.  What has been suggested is a SS13A "Stick-a-Switch", which is an X10 unit. If you have X10, it's a good way to do it, but if not, call an licensed electrician to do the job. 
Title: Re: Single gang Wireless decora style switch
Post by: steven r on July 28, 2007, 10:11:54 AM
Quote from: Dan Lawrence on July 27, 2007, 10:07:52 PM
What you are trying to do is make a 3-way circuit into a 4-way circuit, which only a trained electrician should do.  What has been suggested is a SS13A "Stick-a-Switch", which is an X10 unit. If you have X10, it's a good way to do it, but if not, call an licensed electrician to do the job. 
Dan pretty much summed things up. If a wireless approach won't, for looks or other reasons, you'll need to wire for the 3rd switch. Mr Sparky rates for something like that would be at least $269 and I wouldn't be surprised if it was more. That's a lot of dinners out with the wife.
Title: Re: Single gang Wireless decora style switch
Post by: Boiler on July 28, 2007, 01:05:39 PM
Like Steven and Dan, I don't know of a box mounted X10 RF solution. 

Zwave might be a solution, bit it's expensive and would not be compatible with any other X10 devices you might have.

A possible intermediate solution would be to create a virtual 4 way using an X10 wired in transmitter (X10 2-way device).  For this you would need the following:

You'll still need to cut holes, drill, and wire the above installation.  It's just a lot easier than a true 4 way install.

X10Pro Transmitter : XPT Transmitter Base (http://www.x10pro.com/pro/catalog/inwall.transmitters.html#base)

Smarthome Transmitter : ICon Switch (http://www.smarthome.com/2876sb.html)
Title: Re: Single gang Wireless decora style switch
Post by: JeffVolp on July 28, 2007, 01:22:00 PM
To expand a bit on Boiler's reply, Leviton makes a single address transmitter that looks exactly like a standard Decora switch (HCC10-1TW).  It does not switch the load itself, but just needs access to power.  It transmits a signal to another another X10 compatible switch that actually switches the load.  You can get one for $35 plus shipping on eBay.

Jeff
Title: Re: Single gang Wireless decora style switch
Post by: steven r on July 28, 2007, 02:08:14 PM
Quote from: JeffVolp on July 28, 2007, 01:22:00 PM
To expand a bit on Boiler's reply, Leviton makes a single address transmitter that looks exactly like a standard Decora switch (HCC10-1TW)....
Thanks for the clarification for him.

raccah: This arrangement will meet the WAF. Keep in mind you would need to install a single gang box and run power to it. This could be simple job if say you have an outlet nearby or a real pain if you have to crawl around in the attic to drop a power line. Again to pay someone to do it expect a $300+ bill.

Title: Re: Single gang Wireless decora style switch
Post by: Boiler on July 28, 2007, 02:45:38 PM
Steven and Jeff,

Thanks for the help explaining the Transmitter install.  My posts always make sense when I write them.  I think gnomes must be inserting incorrect words and incomplete thoughts after I've left.

Jeff,
Thanks for the information on the HCC10-1TW @$35.  I'd looked at these five years ago when they were $70+ (too rich for my blood).  Do you think Leviton is getting out of the X10 line in favor of Zwave?

Title: Re: Single gang Wireless decora style switch
Post by: steven r on July 28, 2007, 03:19:21 PM
Quote from: Boiler on July 28, 2007, 02:45:38 PM
...Thanks for the help explaining the Transmitter install.  My posts always make sense when I write them.  I think gnomes must be inserting incorrect words and incomplete thoughts after I've left....
Yeah I know about those gnomes. Mine mess with my spelling.  ;)
Title: Re: Single gang Wireless decora style switch
Post by: JeffVolp on July 28, 2007, 04:20:00 PM
Quote
Thanks for the information on the HCC10-1TW @$35.  I'd looked at these five years ago when they were $70+ (too rich for my blood).  Do you think Leviton is getting out of the X10 line in favor of Zwave?

Actually, they are still $70 at a major automation supplier.  I always search eBay first when I'm looking for something.  You have to watch the shipping charges, but I often find a good deal there.

Leviton doesn't seem to be focusing on their DHC (X10) line like they did several years ago.  I understand some of their products have been discontinued (the 6308 photocell transmitter for example).  I don't know whether that means they are moving away from X10, or just pruning a few low-volume items.

Jeff
Title: Re: Single gang Wireless decora style switch
Post by: raccah on July 29, 2007, 01:02:36 AM
Thanks for the mass responses!!  I am quire familiar with 3 way and 4 way switches.  Our house being in the midst of a remodel and all.  To recap we have presently a three way switch, that is not X10 and we have ZERO power in the middle of the hallway other than overhead lights.

We were going to replace the existing "pair" of non-X10 switches with an X10 3 way decora styled pair of switches like the WS12A and WS14A.  Than I wanted a wireless switch for the middle of the hallway to send the ON/OFF command to the WS12A's address.  Total cost - should be 50 or less bucks - in my eyes ;D

Unfortunately there seems to be no such switch in existence :( that is wireless.  We have that (the XPT) with the two button face in our home, that carry no load but turn on addresses to our inline X10 modules for our cans in the kitchen and dining room.  The issue with those is that we would need to run not only power but neutral as well.  Which would be a major mess for me to pull off, besides the fact that I would need to drill and make a major mess of the place.

X10 Gods and community - there has to be a way to pull this off!  Is there really no way to hack or cobble together a single switch wireless transmitter! 

Thanks again for all the info and help - I hope we can figure this out!
Title: Re: Single gang Wireless decora style switch
Post by: steven r on July 29, 2007, 01:55:16 AM
Quote from: raccah on July 29, 2007, 01:02:36 AM
...Is there really no way to hack or cobble together a single switch wireless transmitter!...
While I sympathize with your WAF, unfortunately for you the wireless multiswitch option is just a more profitable option to make and sell. I've never seen a single wireless switch.
If you could find some sort of conventional looking switch that generated momentary contacts when flipped up or down then perhaps you could wire it into a transmitter. However I've never seen a switch like that either.
Title: Re: Single gang Wireless decora style switch
Post by: steven r on July 29, 2007, 02:09:31 AM
Ok I haven't found one that looks like a wall switch but what you're looking for is called momentary (ON)-OFF-(ON).

If you can find an acceptable momentary (ON)-OFF-(ON), you hack a key chain remote and mount it all in a single gang box. Still you might want to test the range first.
Title: Re: Single gang Wireless decora style switch
Post by: Oldtimer on July 29, 2007, 08:32:23 AM
Quote from: steven r on July 29, 2007, 02:09:31 AM

Ok I haven't found one that looks like a wall switch but what you're looking for is called momentary (ON)-OFF-(ON).

If you can find an acceptable momentary (ON)-OFF-(ON), you hack a key chain remote and mount it all in a single gang box. Still you might want to test the range first.


How about a WS14A, a smart macro and a flag, to go with the key chain remote? A lot of WS14As and key chain remotes are available on EBay at the moment. You might have to push the button twice on occasion to get the result you want but it would be a simple cost effective solution.

The single gang box will have to be plastic of course.
Title: Re: Single gang Wireless decora style switch
Post by: steven r on July 29, 2007, 09:45:35 AM
Quote from: Oldtimer on July 29, 2007, 08:32:23 AM
...How about a WS14A, a smart macro and a flag, to go with the key chain remote?...
So the WS14A is just an electrical momentary switch?

Quote from: Oldtimer on July 29, 2007, 08:32:23 AM
...The single gang box will have to be plastic of course.
Fortunately most after wall install boxes, in fact all I've seen, are plastic.

Every once and awhile you would need to change batteries but that wouldn't be a real problem. In fact you could even tape a spare set inside the box if you want. For that matter as long as you're hacking the key chain remote, you could wire a larger battery pack.
Title: Re: Single gang Wireless decora style switch
Post by: Boiler on July 29, 2007, 10:00:52 AM
Steven and OldTimer,

Could a DS10a door/window security sensor be hacked to work with a standard mechanical switch?

It looks like the DS10a uses a standard reed switch contact closure.  This could be hacked off and wired across a mechanical switch.

I don't know how large the DS10 is (whether it could fit behind a mechanical switch in a deep box), nor do I know how it communicates.  If the unit constantly transmits RF when the switch is opened, this idea is a bust.

raccah,
In general, I personally don't like the idea of burying a RF transmitter in the wall.  The reason for this is that the success or failure of this approach will depend on your home construction.  This approach might work in my home.  It would be a total disaster in my Father's home due to the plaster/metal lathe construction (place reminds me of a Faraday cage).
Just my opinion, but I would opt for the wired approach.  A failed RF attempt would likely cause the WAF to plummet (which in turn would require endless HoneyDo's to restore).  I'm speaking as one who is unlikely to work off previous disapprovals in this life.
Title: Re: Single gang Wireless decora style switch
Post by: Walt2 on July 29, 2007, 02:57:51 PM
Quote from: JeffVolp on July 28, 2007, 01:22:00 PM
To expand a bit on Boiler's reply, Leviton makes a single address transmitter that looks exactly like a standard Decora switch (HCC10-1TW).  It does not switch the load itself, but just needs access to power.  It transmits a signal to another another X10 compatible switch that actually switches the load.  You can get one for $35 plus shipping on eBay.

Sorry to take this thread onto a tangent, but Wow, thanks!   I had ever heard of these before.

While not possibly a solution for the OP, this is certainly a solution to a problem I have had for years.  In my bedrooms, the wall switch by the doors controls the outlet which is also just by the door.  That is of little help since that means any lamp plugged into that outset would be by the door too.  I could just as easily switch the lamp on/off by its own switch.

What I really want, is to be able to turn a lamp that is elsewhere in the room, on and off.

The wall switches have only two wires running to them; hot and hot return.   However, it would be a trivial re-wire to change that to hot and neutral; just what these Leviton single unit controllers require.   

With these Leviton controllers installed, I can use them to control any X10 module anywhere in the room.  Plus, since they look like familiar Decora style switches, others (visitors, guests, etc) would not have a problem using them.

Again, sorry for the tangent, and thanks for the info!

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.   ;D
Title: Re: Single gang Wireless decora style switch
Post by: Boiler on July 29, 2007, 03:38:04 PM
Walt2,

To continue on the tangent, (sorry to the "OP") Smarthome's entire Insteon line (Switchlinc and Icon) are X10 2-way compatible as well (they can be used as X10 transmitters). 

I've been slowly converting over the the Smathome line since they have multiple colors available (replaceable paddles and trim plates).  I used them create a virtual 9 way  switch installation (two traditional 4 way installations - is that a 9 way?) in my upstairs hallway/landing.

Yes they can come in extremely handy when connecting circuits that can't be physically wired together.  If you add Smart Macro's, the sky's the limit.

One down side - the 2 way receiver/transmitters do absorb more X10 than a traditional receiver.
Title: Re: Single gang Wireless decora style switch
Post by: JeffVolp on July 29, 2007, 04:32:22 PM
Quote
I've been slowly converting over the the Smathome line since they have multiple colors available (replaceable paddles and trim plates).

All the standard colors are also available for the Leviton line.  Worthington carries the complete selection.

http://worthdist.com/Leviton/hcswitches.htm

Jeff
Title: Re: Single gang Wireless decora style switch
Post by: Boiler on July 29, 2007, 05:16:37 PM
Quote from: JeffVolp on July 29, 2007, 04:32:22 PM
...All the standard colors are also available for the Leviton line.  Worthington carries the complete selection.

Jeff is exactly right, I probably should have mentioned that.  I began switching to to the Leviton line 5 years ago because of the color replacement kits.  My wife picked Almond for the new house and I was getting tired if disassembling the X10 switches and repainting them to match.

I have nothing against the Leviton line, they are excellent switches (AGC, true rocker action, 1 button program).  They are just more expensive than the Insteon switches which offer the same features with 2-way X10 (X10 transmitter) and Insteon.  As a result I've been slowly replacing my X10 switches with the Insteon.  I have had problem areas (multiple two way switches on a line) where I've had to add a booster.

All is not perfect in the Insteon word.  At this time I would not recommend an Insteon non-dimmable switch due to reported failures (I haven't experienced these).  The Insteon based controllers are also no where near as capable as the CM15a (which is why I'm running my Insteon switches in X10 mode). 
Title: Re: Single gang Wireless decora style switch
Post by: Walt2 on July 29, 2007, 05:41:01 PM
Quote from: Boiler on July 29, 2007, 03:38:04 PM
Walt2,

To continue on the tangent, (sorry to the "OP") Smarthome's entire Insteon line (Switchlinc and Icon) are X10 2-way compatible as well (they can be used as X10 transmitters). 

Correct me if I am wrong, but don't they require a neutral line in the switch box?  The Smarthomes wall switch controllers I looked at, needed hot, hot return (switched hot), and neutral, or a total of three wires.  I have only two wires, regardless of what I hook those two up to be.

Besides, at least for my application, being able to still manually switch on/off that one outlet, located next to the door, under the wall switch itself, isn't a requirement.
Title: Re: Single gang Wireless decora style switch
Post by: Boiler on July 29, 2007, 09:23:08 PM
Quote from: Walt2 on July 29, 2007, 05:41:01 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but don't they require a neutral line in the switch box?  The Smarthomes wall switch controllers I looked at, needed hot, hot return (switched hot), and neutral, or a total of three wires.  I have only two wires, regardless of what I hook those two up to be.

Correct again (man I've eaten my share of crow on this thread) the Smarthome Insteon line requires a neutral connection.  The Leviton switches provide a neutral connection as an option for noise immunity.  I have several of the Leviton switches running without the neutral.

I really need to start reading the posts a bit closer:
Quote from: Walt2 on July 29, 2007, 02:57:51 PM
The wall switches have only two wires running to them; hot and hot return.   However, it would be a trivial re-wire to change that to hot and neutral; just what these Leviton single unit controllers require.   

Thanks for not using the words "hey stupid" in your reply (I do answer to this at home).  Sorry for the mis-information.  And for the Xth time, back to the original thread.

Title: Re: Single gang Wireless decora style switch
Post by: Walt2 on July 30, 2007, 07:46:21 AM
Quote from: Boiler on July 29, 2007, 09:23:08 PM
Thanks for not using the words "hey stupid" in your reply (I do answer to this at home).  Sorry for the mis-information.  And for the Xth time, back to the original thread.

No, that was certainly not my intention.    :D

I look at threads like this as open "brain storming".  If someone didn't post about those Leviton wall controllers, even though they weren't the right solution for the OP, their mention was of help to me.
Title: Re: Single gang Wireless decora style switch
Post by: dave w on July 30, 2007, 12:09:11 PM
Quote from: raccah on July 27, 2007, 06:22:12 PM
I wanted to know if there is a single gang decora look alike that is wireless and will work with the CM15A's RF antenna?    I do not want one of those 4 button things - they are not wife approved  ;)

Any ideas?  Please I have searched the web - I am sure I missed it - but please help!

raccah

To answer your specific question with the limitations you have described: You can't there from here.

There are NO single button WIRELESS X10 switches except "Big Red" the panic button, and it does not look Decora.

Although if you mounted in your hall next to a door, it could be confused with an elevator call button or a fire alarm ::)
Title: Re: Single gang Wireless decora style switch
Post by: Boiler on July 30, 2007, 07:58:10 PM
One more try for the wired approach.

Assuming you were going to mount a box in your hallway - could you use a standard mechanical Decora switch to activate a remote Dry Contact module?  You would need to run low voltage wiring (2 wires) to the switch, but these can be a very light gauge (22 gauge is nice for hookup) and are far easier to feed than Romex cable.

Assuming this is an inside wall with no insulation (hallway right?) you should be able to enter the wall though either the top or bottom.  Route the low voltage wire from the mechanical switch to a PSC01 install in an unobtrusive (wife approved) location where you can access the power line. 

If you absolutely can't gain access above or below,  you could angle drill though the plate and route the wire along your base trim.  If you are replacing trim during your "remodel" this may actually be the most direct approach. 

If you have a stud finder that has "electric wiring" detection capability, check the wall for live circuits first.  A drill bit is not a good way to locate a live electrical run.

PSC01 Manual (http://www.x10pro.com/pro/pdf/psc01.pdf)
Title: Re: Single gang Wireless decora style switch
Post by: HA Dave on July 30, 2007, 09:11:06 PM
.... this problem has been eating at the back of my mind. With far too few brain cells to have any ate away... I have been forced to think. I can completely understand wanting to have an exact match with the other switches (I am married).

I know the decora rocker plate pops off..... I wonder how difficult it would be to just cut-off the "workings" from the back and install a couple momentary (behind the squishy rocker plate) and hack the switches to a 2 button remote (KR19A). With the working guts removed (from the switch) there would be ample space to glue on the remote. Then the modified switch could be mounted in the wall using a plastic rework-box and NO WIRING.

Of course the batteries would need replaced every year or two. But I've gone alot further for WAF.
Title: Re: Single gang Wireless decora style switch
Post by: Walt2 on July 31, 2007, 07:38:45 AM
Quote from: Dave_x10_L on July 30, 2007, 09:11:06 PM
I know the decora rocker plate pops off..... I wonder how difficult it would be to just cut-off the "workings" from the back and install a momentary (behind the squishy rocker plate, where the square button is now) and hack the switch to a 2 button remote (KR19A). With the working guts removed (from the switch) there would be ample space to glue on the remote. Then the modified switch could be mounted in the wall using a plastic rework-box and NO WIRING.

Would not a decora-style 3-way companion switch, like the WS14A, be much the same thing???  Aren't companion switches just momentary contact switches??
Title: Re: Single gang Wireless decora style switch
Post by: HA Dave on July 31, 2007, 05:32:22 PM
Quote from: Walt2 on July 31, 2007, 07:38:45 AM

Would not a decora-style 3-way companion switch, like the WS14A, be much the same thing???  Aren't companion switches just momentary contact switches??


Well..... you might be right Walt2. I've never used the WS14A. Is it a hardwired switch?
Title: Re: Single gang Wireless decora style switch
Post by: Oldtimer on July 31, 2007, 09:18:50 PM
Quote from: Dave_x10_L on July 31, 2007, 05:32:22 PM
Quote from: Walt2 on July 31, 2007, 07:38:45 AM

Would not a decora-style 3-way companion switch, like the WS14A, be much the same thing???  Aren't companion switches just momentary contact switches??


Well..... you might be right Walt2. I've never used the WS14A. Is it a hardwired switch?

It's hardwired in its original application but it's just a momentary contact switch.  See my earlier post in this thread about one way to use it in this application. The companion switch in the older 3 way x10 switch works the same way but it's harder to get by itself. When I needed one I had to buy the whole assembly on EBay just to get the companion switch.
Title: Re: Single gang Wireless decora style switch
Post by: gil shultz on August 07, 2007, 09:25:38 PM
Good Evening,

Just thinking out loud:
I had a similar problem but also had a fan involved.  I purchased three Emerson SW101 switches and the module for the fan.  I installed them in series and they have work flawless since I installed them about 10 months ago.  I also purchased the hand held RF remote for these and it makes a very sound system.  I have dimmable lighting and a multi speed fan. The control from the switches is actually RF and it may be possible just to run a power line to the switch and not connect the ground.  If you do you blow the switch.  Note if you do that the on/off switch will not work.

Good Luck
Gil Shultz
Title: Re: Single gang Wireless decora style switch
Post by: levydav on April 18, 2009, 02:01:27 PM
The EXACT off-the-shelf solution now exists: the EnOcean/Ad Hoc Electronics Batter- Free 3-Way Wireless Light Switch Kit:
>http://www.adhocelectronics.com/Products/Wireless-Lighting-Control;jsessionid=0a010c441f435e59c460db204c9bb2e0ec474cafbf50.e3eTa3aSaxmTe34Pa38Ta38Paxb0

But it's not cheap: $260 for a receiver and three decora switches
Title: Re: Single gang Wireless decora style switch
Post by: dave w on April 18, 2009, 03:17:07 PM
Very old thread, but I found an answer for the OP. (this works, I've tried the concept using motion sensors).

Hot glue a Credit Card Remote on wall at appropriate location.

Wait for wife to have a nuclear hissy fit and WAF goes in to exponential negative numbers.

Replace credit card remote with a Slim Line Sticky SS13 switch.

WAF resets to zero, neutral.

Grab an adult beverage.

 rofl