X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Topic started by: Walt2 on March 03, 2020, 06:53:21 PM
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I got an email from X10.com (surprise, surprise). It is promoting their "new" X10 modules that are now claimed to be LED compatible.
I was wondering if anyone knew if that was really true. :'
Do their "new" appliance modules no longer have that local control trickle current?
Do their "new" wall switch modules no longer use a trickle current to run their internal circuits (instead use a neutral wire)? Remember that old 60w minimum load, in order to have enough of a trickle current?
For me, its these trickle currents which, while benign to the old incandescent bulbs, are enough to activate (illuminate) LED bulbs.
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I don't see how a two wire wall switch that needed to steal power through the load. Can be totally compatible with an LED load.
If they did redesign the appliance modules with a real relay so the sensing voltages are not there. Then maybe they would be LED friendly.
Will see if I got a email from them lately.
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What modules are they saying are LED friendly?
Some switches and modules are and have been for some time now.
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From the looks of it on their website, the new switch (the WS469) is a relay switch, requires a neutral, and can act as a master for 3-way switch setups.
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From the looks of it on their website, the new switch (the WS469) is a relay switch, requires a neutral, and can act as a master for 3-way switch setups.
I've used this switch for over a year now, it does require a neutral wire, it is very silent as are most if not all the new modules.
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What modules are they saying are LED friendly?
Some switches and modules are and have been for some time now.
Appliance Module, AM466, Wall Switch XPS4, Dimmable Wall Switch XPDi3, Wall Switch WS469, and Inline XPFM.
I know about the WS469, and even have a few. Its the others that I am curious about.
Also, and this is an old problem, X10 likes to change or redesign a module, but not change its model number, making it difficult to tell if one has the new design or not.
Anyway, let's start with the AM466. Does the new version (if there is indeed a new version) omit the local control feature and therefore the LED troublesome trickle current?
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I don't have any being sold now modules.
I can tell you the CFL friendly AM466 (4/21/2010) three pin appliance modules do not have local control sensing on them, but since they still has the ratchet on off switch. There was very small sensing voltage still on the output. They maybe redesigned again with a real relay output.
XPS4,XPDI3,WS469 and XPFM need the neutral power connection. XPS4 and WS469 mention LED in their description. XPDI3 still has the minimum incandescent load in its description and no LED support listed. XPFM does not mention LED loads.
The no new part number for many of the modules. Does make it difficult to determine if you have the latest and greatest. B:(
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XPDI3 still has the minimum incandescent load in its description and no LED support listed.
The XPDi3, from the email, now mentions a minimum 60watt equivalent LED load. However, a 60watt equivalent load is, what, around a 5watt real load with LED's?
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The XPDi3, from the email, now mentions a minimum 60watt equivalent LED load. However, a 60watt equivalent load is, what, around a 5watt real load with LED's?
[/quote] I believe it is closer to 10 watt
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......"new" X10 modules that are now claimed to be LED compatible.
What difference does it make? Why would anyone use an X10 module to control an LED bulb... when you can just use a smart bulb. But... if you MUST use X10 to control a (non-switch controlled) LED bulb... I use the old non-dimming socket rocket (https://www.x10.com/x10-home-automation/modules/lm15a.html)'s (LM15A).
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I don't see how a two wire wall switch that needed to steal power through the load. Can be totally compatible with an LED load.
About 2 years ago I designed a small module that connects directly across the load that allows 2-wire X10 wall switches to work with dimmable CFL and LED bulbs. It emulates the tungsten filament in an incandescent bulb, but consumes almost no power when the switch is on. It is about the size of your thumb, and should easily fit into the electrical box for the light. Some of those on this forum may have a prototype. I should have another batch available after my PCB supplier gets going again.
Jeff
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...I should have another batch available after my PCB supplier gets going again.
Jeff
Just be sure to wait 14 days before opening the package. rofl
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Late to the party.
I just got the email about the X10 modules and LED bulbs.
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What difference does it make? Why would anyone use an X10 module to control an LED bulb... when you can just use a smart bulb.
My Arris modem/router can only handle 30 wireless clients. That would be a good reason to limit all the WiFi trinkets.
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My Arris modem/router can only handle 30 wireless clients. That would be a good reason to limit all the WiFi trinkets.
That would be a good reason to avoid wifi (or replace an outdated router)…. but why attempt to use an appliance module. Socket rockets are fine with LED's (and they don't cost much). I've even (posted) used them with plug/adapters so they work in-line with the lamp cord.
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My Arris modem/router can only handle 30 wireless clients. That would be a good reason to limit all the WiFi trinkets.
That would be a good reason to avoid wifi (or replace an outdated router)…. but why attempt to use an appliance module. Socket rockets are fine with LED's (and they don't cost much). I've even (posted) used them with plug/adapters so they work in-line with the lamp cord.
Unless you are buying commercial grade network components, 30 clients is actually pretty good. I've read a few reviews during my recent search for a replacement router that many (maybe most) routers start to choke after 15 clients are added to the table. They don't even have to be connected simultaneously for other devices to start having connectivity issues. Since home grade routers can cost up to $3-500.
As for the smart bulbs, I suppose it might be worth considering that a smart bulb is a device that allows control at a single light location. A smart switch controls all bulbs on the string. A basic LED bulb costs <$2 whereas the smart variant can cost $15-50 depending on technology. Seems to me a $25 X10 switch would make more sense financially than going broke on all those bulbs. :'
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A basic LED bulb costs <$2 whereas the smart variant can cost $15-50 depending on technology. Seems to me a $25 X10 switch would make more sense financially than going broke on all those bulbs. :'
Light "switches'.... particularly for a group of lights... aren't a bad idea at all. But "smart bulbs" (only 8-10 bucks) are a much better deal for a single fixture instead of the "MODULE" (which this thread is about).
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My Arris modem/router can only handle 30 wireless clients. That would be a good reason to limit all the WiFi trinkets.
That would be a good reason to avoid wifi (or replace an outdated router)….
Yeah, well the "out dated router" is the only one with phone that works om my cable system. Believe me, if I could replace my out dated router I would have.
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...the "out dated router" is the only one with phone that works om my cable system.
Yeah.... the cable modem-router (provided via my cable company) was... what I had to use to connect the phone service provided by the (same aforementioned) cable company. But even then.... I still used my own faster better (actually the same old) router for other wifi devices. Now... I use a wifi provided phone service too (it saves money... and I am cheap).
OK... my own router wasn't exactly free. But the Cable Company charged for there wifi access (which has/had other bennies as well). But I decided I'd get better and more secure service if I controlled it myself.
I also hard-wired service to my man-cave/office/nerd-nasium where I use a 10 port switcher... to minimize wifi traffic.
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Yeah, well the "out dated router" is the only one with phone that works om my cable system. Believe me, if I could replace my out dated router I would have.
I have one of those old Arris modems with the phone jack at my other place but I use my own router off it for better flexibility. That thing's been there for 12 years! Fortunately I bought it for under $100 back then rather than paying over $1400 in rental fees. I cancelled the phone line a number of years ago as I got too many robocalls and use an Obihai device with a free Google voice number as the landline.
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…. I use my own router...……….. Fortunately I bought it for under $100 back then rather than paying over $1400 in rental fees. I cancelled the phone line a number of years ago….. and use an Obihai device with a free Google voice number as the landline.
Everyone loves a deal that saves them money! And exploiting some of these technologies can certainly do that. Home automation tech... has a potential to save a dollar or two as well. But as much as I like saving a buck.... I really think the added safety, security, convenience, and time... is at least equally as important.
That said... I only have 4 non-LED bulbs left in the house.
Unfortunately... these 4... are problematic. My home (built in 1943) has some non-neutral switch wiring. So... I have limited choices in some places.... hence the 4 incandescent bulbs (and WS467 Wall Switches). One of these days.... maybe I'll commit to a long weekend spent in the attic... and rewire the last remaining switches. Or maybe... not every light in my home needs to be automated.
For me... automation has taken a slightly unexpected turn. My automation is now much more about media, data, schedules, reminders, suggestions, (even companionship).... at home and elsewhere, even when while mobile (like when cycling). I think I am getting more of my Automation ideas from Halo than the automation forums now-a-days.
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Socket rockets are fine with LED's (and they don't cost much).
But "smart bulbs" (only 8-10 bucks) are a much better deal for a single fixture instead of the "MODULE" (which this thread is about).
Not picking on you, Dave; you just happened to say it. I couldn't help but jump in here as I just finished accidentally ranting about this in another thread. I have issues with using WiFi for every little one of my HA doodads for the scalability reason that others have stated and because it introduces a single point of failure. X10 switches are peer-to-peer, as are some other tech, but 2-wire, single-pole dimmers aren't always a good option either. But Socket Rockets are often not a good solution! My fiancée would not take kindly to one of those goofy things being on every bulb in a chandelier, and I wouldn't put them inside an enclosed fixture because I've seen the reports of them exploding under thermal stress. I really think X10 needs to make their own "smart" LED bulbs that conform to the X10 PLC protocol. (After all, Insteon and Z-Wave are already doing it. ::))
The concept isn't hard: Put an LED module, rectifier, and a Socket Rocket into one A19 enclosure with an E26 screw base. (The engineering, I'm aware, is a bit more precarious.) For bonus points, add dimming (since everyone else is already doing that too ::)).
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...For bonus points, add dimming (since everyone else is already doing that too ::)).
... and changing colors too! I'm not enamored with the color changing bulbs as my disco days are long gone rofl but my 15 year old grandson seems to like them.
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... and changing colors too! I'm not enamored with the color changing bulbs as my disco days are long gone rofl but my 15 year old grandson seems to like them.
I think colored light is appropriate for certain occasions and moods. Even being able to select a particular hue of white (i.e. warm, cool, daylight) would be a nice touch. But we at least need the basics!
X10 bulbs would actually have a technical advantage over WiFi ones: Extra receiving "nodes" on the same unit code are free (as in they put no strain on the network nor its logical limits; not as in price). A single unit code could be set to every bulb in the same fixture so that they respond simultaneously to the same commands, but unlike with WiFi, there is no burden of an additional managed connection to AP or router for each one added. And having multiple X10 receivers doesn't attenuate the signal like having multiple transmitters does (so no 2-way support here! :)).
Encoding colors into the X10 protocol might be tricky, though. Hmmm... maybe a new ExtCode type could be created for that.
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sadly, I hold little hope that X10 will do any of this since they won't even make an Alexa hub.
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…... I have issues with using WiFi for every little one of my HA doodads for the scalability reason that others have stated and because it introduces a single point of failure. ……..
…... I really think X10 needs to make their own "smart" LED bulbs that conform to the X10 PLC protocol. (After all, Insteon and Z-Wave are already doing it.
I am in total agreement with you toasterking. X10 needs lots more new products/ideas/and direction that moves the technology toward compatibility and integration with other home automation products and other new technologies.
But.... with that said (posted). I am fully aware of the difficulties incurred with growth and product development. So.... I do (painfully) forgive X10 it's slowness to adapt and stay relevant. I think... maybe... what appears to be mixed-feelings with rants.... is my feeling really are mixed.
I do NOT have any long term automation "plans". It isn't that my setup isn't growing. I am very happy with the rate of growth and development of my automation. This "home automation season" (currently winding up)... has been one of my best ever. However.... Somedays... I think I just need to update with all WiFi automation products... and re-wire (with neutral wires where needed). Other days... I think why would I abandon a wonderfully reliable X10 setup. My current mixed-bag of products works perfectly together.
So sorry if my contributions have seem confused. But they do represent my feelings towards X10 today. Thanks for calling me on it. I will reconsider my opinions more.
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sadly, I hold little hope that X10 will do any of this since they won't even make an Alexa hub.
Agreed. I believe Authinx's intentions were good when they bought X10WTI's assets, and they may still be. But if priority #1 has to be keeping the existing business alive today, it's harder to justify working on something that's not already bringing in money. I'm not saying that's what's going on, but trying to give them the component of doubt that is potentially beneficial... or something like that.
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So sorry if my contributions have seem confused. But they do represent my feelings towards X10 today. Thanks for calling me on it. I will reconsider my opinions more.
Nothing confusing about what you have contributed and you make a lot of valid points. I think you consider the possibilities on a broader scale than many of us do. When that happens, there are bound to be conflicting ideas.
I've been partial to X10 for a long time due to its openness, simplicity, and legacy of inexpensive products and broad vendor support, and part of me has to respect the pioneering spirit of a brand and product that helped kickstart an industry. And I think I made the right choice at the time when I outfitted my house with it. But it's clear that there's not much innovation being had there today, and limiting oneself to that legacy alone would be silly. X10 PLC still does what it does very well and I'll definitely have it in my next house, starting with Jeff's XTB-IIR. But there's a lot more to HA than burying old switches and fixture modules in the wall.
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……. part of me has to respect the pioneering spirit of a brand and product that helped kickstart an industry. And I think I made the right choice at the time when I outfitted my house with it.
Again I am agreement with you. And I do believe that "pioneering spirit".... that DIY'ism is still strong here at the forums. Tuicemen and the Pi Experts, and other long-time forum contributors (like yourself and too many others to mention). Have kept X10 very functional.
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... I wouldn't put them inside an enclosed fixture because I've seen the reports of them exploding under thermal stress.
They are also rated for 150W IIRC. For LED usage this is a non-issue. But to say they are a universal solution is a bit problematic IMO. I had a socket rocket used for a string of standard outdoor xmas lights that I miscalculated at under 150W. When it stopped working, I found that the insides of the socket rocket were carbonized (burnt to a crisp including the board and potting). I was very close to an open fire from what I saw. When I checked the math on the box, it was wrong and I was running over 100W per strand on 4 strands in series (400W) despite the box claiming less than 150W for the 4. I'm lucky that this was outside to provide extra cooling to probably save my house, but I would not recommend these be used in an enclosure of any kind knowing that the failure mode is not a simple filament failure but IMO a very likely fire. I understand that I abused the module, but that should result in the module failing not a fire IMO.
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I would not recommend these be used in an enclosure of any kind knowing that the failure mode is not a simple filament failure but IMO a very likely fire.
After that report, it seems I'd be crazy to use a Socket Rocket for anything, ever. Why they didn't just include a fuse is beyond me. Even in old appliance modules where they were too cheap to use a real fuse, they had a single strand of something like 26AWG wire soldered in as a fail-safe. I don't think the load itself was fused, but still, c'mon! I think the thing that irks me the most is that they were actually able to get those things UL certified as they are.
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I saw other reports of those modules failing so when mine failed I went probing for why. TBF, it's not like that's the only X10 module I've had melt on me. I had a WS467 (or maybe it was a WS4777) have the cutoff switch fall out because the whole thing got so hot it melted. This was controlling a single outdoor halogen lamp with 2 bulbs rated at 300W (150W x2). It should not have been a problem but clearly it was. Seems to me they skimped on components and/or heat sinks in contact with thermoplastics beyond their transition temperature. That's not necessarily a fire issue, but definitely a design failure.
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I had a WS467 (or maybe it was a WS4777) have the cutoff switch fall out because the whole thing got so hot it melted. This was controlling a single outdoor halogen lamp with 2 bulbs rated at 300W (150W x2). It should not have been a problem but clearly it was.
I have a suspicion that the original specs X10 assigned to the wall switches was based on the switch being installed in a metal box which was the standard in late '70s. X10 engineering was always on the minimalist side bordering on hinky. I still do not see how they got UL approval for the socket rocket. $0.02
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I don't see how a two wire wall switch that needed to steal power through the load. Can be totally compatible with an LED load.
About 2 years ago I designed a small module that connects directly across the load that allows 2-wire X10 wall switches to work with dimmable CFL and LED bulbs. It emulates the tungsten filament in an incandescent bulb, but consumes almost no power when the switch is on. It is about the size of your thumb, and should easily fit into the electrical box for the light. Some of those on this forum may have a prototype. I should have another batch available after my PCB supplier gets going again.
Jeff
This sounds like exactly what I need. Have you received any new units, or is your PCB supplier shutdown with everyone else?
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About 2 years ago I designed a small module that connects directly across the load that allows 2-wire X10 wall switches to work with dimmable CFL and LED bulbs. It emulates the tungsten filament in an incandescent bulb, but consumes almost no power when the switch is on. It is about the size of your thumb, and should easily fit into the electrical box for the light. Some of those on this forum may have a prototype. I should have another batch available after my PCB supplier gets going again.
Jeff
I have three of these "LED Shunt" with two in service. Both shunts work incredibly well. In one application I had a 7W golf ball incandescent bulb in an extra fixture to get two LED sconces on the garage to work. All was well until I replaced the LED bulbs with the "Flame Bulbs" for a gas flame look. Apparently the flame bulbs drew even less current than the 13W LED bulbs. So they would not turn on but would turn off. The LED Shunt made everything perfect again. My next project is to X10 the kitchen fluorescent fixture. I plan on removing the two magnetic ballasts and replacing the bulbs with the LED tubes that are direct 120V. With an LED Shunt I believe I can use a WS467 for control. Every time I install a shunt I dream up four more applications. They work really well.
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About 2 years ago I designed a small module that connects directly across the load that allows 2-wire X10 wall switches to work with dimmable CFL and LED bulbs. It emulates the tungsten filament in an incandescent bulb, but consumes almost no power when the switch is on. It is about the size of your thumb, and should easily fit into the electrical box for the light. Some of those on this forum may have a prototype. I should have another batch available after my PCB supplier gets going again.
This sounds like exactly what I need. Have you received any new units, or is your PCB supplier shutdown with everyone else?
They were shut down for awhile, but I recently received a small batch of boards:
http://jvde.us/xtb/xtb_ordering.htm#led-shunt
Hopefully, X10 will put it into production.
Jeff
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Yep. They work great! I am using a WS467 with 4 Cree 9-watt BR-30s.
Just ordered another.
Steve
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Let me add my two cents regarding the LED Shunts. They work great! For years, I've been trying to figure out an easy way to convert a lamppost and other outdoor lights controlled by WS467s to LED bulbs. Until now, I've been forced to leave one incandescent bulb in each fixture so that the WS467s could control them. After installing the shunt, I am now 100% LED in those fixtures and the control works perfectly. Thanks Jeff for making these available.
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Thanks Jeff for making these available.
I'll second that.
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Just a handful are left now. There may not be any more if X10 doesn't go into production.
I noticed someone is selling a heat shrunk 10K resistor on Amazon for over $20. Obviously, this is much more than a 10 cent resistor.
Jeff
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Jeff just wondering if there’s a 240v alternative you know of out there. I know it’s a long shot but I thought I’d ask anyway.
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Jeff just wondering if there’s a 240v alternative you know of out there. I know it’s a long shot but I thought I’d ask anyway.
Sorry, not that I am aware of. The 10K resistor solution would obviously overheat on 240V. And mine has a 130VAC MOV to prevent powerline spikes from damaging the 400V MOSFETs.
Jeff
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Jeff just wondering if there’s a 240v alternative you know of out there. I know it’s a long shot but I thought I’d ask anyway.
Sorry, not that I am aware of. The 10K resistor solution would obviously overheat on 240V. And mine has a 130VAC MOV to prevent powerline spikes from damaging the 400V MOSFETs.
Jeff
I didn’t think so. I’m trying to come up with a solution to run LEDs on a 240v power line using X10 but I’m not having much luck. Not a big X10 deal breaker at the moment but the way development is going in lighting technology I’m hoping it’s not a race against time
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I’m trying to come up with a solution to run LEDs on a 240v power line using X10 but I’m not having much luck. Not a big X10 deal breaker at the moment but the way development is going in lighting technology I’m hoping it’s not a race against time.
Petera, just a thought, but could you not use a 240v center tapped 1:1 isolation transformer. So the secondary would have 2- 120v branches that you could use any 120 volt devices in pairs. I think pairs would be best to balance the current flow.
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With a 230V primary, 120V/120V secondary transformer.
The X10 signal may have problems getting through the transformer. If you have the LED bulb and X10 120 Volt module on the secondary and the X10 signals on 230V the primary. Maybe an X10 transceiver with an X10 RF command on the 120V side.