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[NGN1000]

Why won't X10 Mini Timer control whole house?   

I am have trouble with one timer controlling remotes through all of the house wiring.  Just some of the wiring / controllers work(s). 

The house has main panelboard of 110 / 220 two phase. 

House also has three subpanels.  Each is connected through a separate breaker to the main panel.   

I am guessing the signal is limited / impacted / attentuated when crossing breakers in subpanels / main panelboard OR signal is only on one of the phases.   

Any help sorting this out?  I have two controllers so I can experiment.  Just need a little direction. 

I am guessing I am not the first with this problem. 

Neil

[HA Dave]

House also has three subpanels.  Each is connected through a separate breaker to the main panel.   

I am guessing the signal is limited / impacted / attentuated when crossing breakers in subpanels / main panelboard OR signal is only on one of the phases.   

NGN1000 are you using any kind of Phase Coupler(s)?

[JeffVolp]

House also has three subpanels.  Each is connected through a separate breaker to the main panel.   

I am guessing the signal is limited / impacted / attenuated when crossing breakers in subpanels / main panelboard OR signal is only on one of the phases.   

In addition to needing a phase coupler, you may also need filters and/or some sort of signal booster.  With a main panel and three subpanels, this may be a very large home.  Many electrical devices in use in today's homes attenuate or block X10 signals.  The nastiest should be isolated with filters.  I wrote a troubleshooting series that may help:

http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm

Jeff

[HA Dave]

In addition to needing a phase coupler, you may also need filters and/or some sort of signal booster.  With a main panel and three subpanels................... http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm

Good call Jeff!

[PajamaGuy]

...just another $0.02 -
While I was programming my mini timer, I had it plugged into an extension cord.  It would only control some of my outlets.  When I eliminated the extension, the timer was able to control everything.  I've also found that controllers work better in a "tight-fitting" wall outlet.

Make sure you perform the dryer phase-coupling test.

[Brian H]

P.J. I actually saw a tutorial on tuning X10 modules and if the signals where too strong to get a good tune. They said try it on a long extension cord to weaken the signal. 

To be clear here. Trying to tune a module is DANGEROUS if not careful. As the modules have  powerline derived power supplies where the Line is common. Easy way to make big sparks or kill oneself.

[steven r]

...When I eliminated the extension, the timer was able to control everything....

...They said try it on a long extension cord to weaken the signal....

This is a standard extension cord we're talking about? Not a surge strip?
How does a standard 6 ft extension cord significantly change the signal for a technology that is designed to travel many times that in household wiring?

[Brian H]

Could have been a longer run like 50' and wrapped in a coil.

[PajamaGuy]

Mine was a simple 4',  3-prong power strip (not surge protected).

I'm sure with 3 sub-panels that the problem is phasing or noise or both - I'd just mentioned the extension and the loose wall socket because I was only a phone call away from spending $100 on my electrician when I tried the "test it with the dryer running" suggestion.

[steven r]

Mine was a simple 4',  3-prong power strip (not surge protected)....

So Jeff or anyone out there...
How does a simple 4',  3-prong power strip (not surge protected) significantly change the signal for a technology that is designed to travel many times that in household wiring?
BTW... In order to place my CM15A high enough where it can successfully transmit an RF signal to my camera, I currently have my CM15A plugged into a 6' cord which is plugged into my XTB which then is plugged into a 2' cord that then goes to the outlet.

...spending $100 on my electrician...

You can get an electrician for just $100? I'm jealous. My last "project" that required an electrician cost over $250 and that was with a coupon that exempted the $60 house call.

[JeffVolp]

How does a simple 4',  3-prong power strip (not surge protected) significantly change the signal for a technology that is designed to travel many times that in household wiring?

House wiring is intended to distribute 60Hz AC power.  X10 signal bursts behave more like low-end radio signals that are coupled directly onto the powerline.  We all know there can be significant losses as those signals propagate throughout the home.  Distributed inductance and capacitance take a steady toll, acting like a low-pass filter.  Any signal suckers along the way complicate matters.

That said, I would not expect "significant" attenuation from a simple 4 foot power strip.  It will increase the impedance between the transmitter and the power distribution panel.  Whether that results in a 2% loss or a 10% (or greater) loss depends on how low an impedance is already on the distribution network, and if there are any nearby "signal suckers" on the same circuit.

Jeff

[PajamaGuy]

Steven - jeez, with almost 1500 posts I'd think you would know that with X10, logic doesn't always apply.  

I'm learning to read the boards - and if it doesn't work in that location, the first step is to plug it into the same outlet as the device.  I spent 2-days trying everything else, including running the oven & dryer before I found the power strip was a problem.  I think it sucked just enough signal that some of the weaker outlets wouldn't work.

That's another thing - depending upon building code and age of home - some of my outlets are wired via not the screw terminals, but the hole you just push the wire into.  Not the best of connections.  

...and curiously, my best connection is actually thru a new Belkin Surge-protected power strip.  The CM15A or the Mini-Timer would not work when plugged directly into the outlet, BUT when plugging the Belkin into the same socket AND plugging the CM15A or the Timer into the Belkin, I can control every socket & switch in the house!

sometimes logic isn't logical, Mr. Spock...

[steven r]

Steven - jeez, with almost 1500 posts I'd think you would know that with X10, logic doesn't always apply.  ...

Yeah with X10 "logic" sometimes you have to use the approach of "If at first you don't succeed, beat your head against another wall." 

[HA Dave]

That's another thing - depending upon building code and age of home

 
There has been MANY changes... and temporary wiring solutions over the years.

 - some of my outlets are wired via not the screw terminals, but the hole you just push the wire into.  Not the best of connections.

 

Interestingly... I worked for/as an electrician when those were (I think.. newly) introduced. There had been many recent changes at that time. Including alum. wire and wiring components, and the extendive use of wire-nuts.

We did NOT use the poke-a-wire-in-the-hole connections. We used a corrosion proofing(?) paste on contacts where alum met copper. And we used wire-nuts (without securing them with tape). If I remember correctly... the shiny black electrical tape we all use now.. didn't meet code everwhere yet. When tape was used.. it was friction tape (the black gooey tape).

...and curiously, my best connection is actually thru a new Belkin Surge-protected power strip.  The CM15A or the Mini-Timer would not work when plugged directly into the outlet, BUT when plugging the Belkin into the same socket AND plugging the CM15A or the Timer into the Belkin, I can control every socket & switch in the house!

 

Something is wrong there.... not just curious. I don't know what it is... I was a wire-puller.. not a engineer. Just guessing... a bad connection (or bad ground) somewhere, maybe a bad patch of receptacles... maybe a loose wirenut in a junction box. Maybe... those push-in wire connections.

My experience with extention cords, has been a lot the same as steven r's.... and maybe a little like yours. I have found I can use extention cords and power strips with my X10 devices with NO PROBLEMS. I have also found... a cheapy six foot extention cord will leak or degrade some random or static signals (AKA noise). A cell phone charger that normally causes a disruption on it's circuit... can be used on an extention cord.

[steven r]

...I would not expect "significant" attenuation from a simple 4 foot power strip....

...My experience with extension cords, has been a lot the same as steven r's and maybe a little like yours....

So it sounds like the extension cord is sort of a pot luck solution. Try it and if it works great. If not move on to "the next wall to beat your head against".

...Something is wrong there.... not just curious. I don't know what it is... ...Just guessing... a bad connection (or bad ground) somewhere, maybe a bad patch of receptacles... maybe a loose wirenut in a junction box. Maybe... those push-in wire connections...

I'd be curious if a replacement outlet would make a difference.