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[berniejr72]

I just got a pretty good deal on some equipment so I pulled the trigger and ordered.  I will be receiving the items soon but I have an advance question.  I've been reading about the reception RF issues with the CM15a, however I will also be receiving a TM571 transceiver as part of one of the packages that I ordered.  Is this item useless since I will be using the CM15a with AHP or can I use it as a secondary transceiver for extending the range, or in some other capacity?

Thanks

[Jim Clark]

The TM571 will receive RF sent X10 signals and place them on the power lines. The CM15 will then see these signals and act on them. The receive range of the TM571 is better than the CM15a

[PajamaGuy]

...but...but the TM571 will only transceive RF signals that are the same HouseCode as the TM571, the CM15A will transceive all 16 HouseCodes unless you tell it not to.  And the Tm571 is NOT polite, the CM15A is (as is a RR501)

[berniejr72]

OK I think I'm understanding this a little better, but please bear with my newbieness.  So can the CM15A and TM751 be in the same house code?

 If I am understanding correctly here is a scenario describing how I think it would work:

I set the CM15A to say housecode B and then put all devices that only are controlled via powerline(Appliance and lamp modules) also on housecode B and the CM15A will control those.  Then I can set the TM751 to house code  D, and plug it in in close range to the CM15A and assign items which are controlled via RF (Security and Motion Sensors) also to house code D.  So when something on house code D is triggered it sends the command to the TM751 which in turns sends it to the CM15A and AHP and executes the command.

PajamaGuy I have been reading about the TM751 nit being polite meaning it will interfere with other RF commands, but If I only have a limited set of RF devices should I be concerned?  I guess that if I had RF devices on housecode B (same as the CM15A) then the potential for the TM751 to interfere would exist?

[PajamaGuy]

Being polite means not transmitting a PLC while one is active.  In other words, if the CM15a or the RR501 "hears" a PLC, it will wait until the signal passes (stops) before transmitting.  The TM571 just blasts out the PLC.  Also, the RR501 can use either UnitCode 1 or 9, the TM571 uses only UC-1.

Your idea for using the TM571 seems backwards.  And before we start, the RF coming from Security Sensors does not TRANSCEIVE directly to a PLC.  The single-housecode TM571 was a precursor to the 16-HouseCode CM15A.  Plus, the CM15a can 1- Talk to AHP, and 2, store macros & timers within itself.

If your CM15A's PLC's reach all of the your devices, there's no reason to use the TM571 - UNLESS - you want to use a remote like a PalmPad from some location where it can't reach the CM15a.

For instance - if you spend a lot of time in your detached garage that is far enough from your CM15A that when (while standing in the garage) you press a button on your palmpad to control a device in the garage the CM15A doesn't get the RF and therefore doesn't switch the module on/off. - by having all the garage devices on the same HouseCode you COULD stick a TM571 in the garage, on that H/C.

[berniejr72]

PajamaGuy thanks for the input, I've always been a backwards thinker  .

I do understand that IF everything reaches the CM15a that then I'm good.  However in reading about the issues that some have with the range of the CM15A, I guess I thinking ahead that I will have some issues.  My house is a 40 year old split/quad level, 3000  sq. foot home.  My CM15a will reside on a laptop in my basement.  The one remote I see myself using potentially, is a security remote (SH624).  So if I'm on my upper level MBR, and I press a button on that remote which is set to house code D, then the CM15A may may not pick up the RF signal from that remote.  However if in the basement(or does it even need to be close to the CM15A) I also place a TM751 on house code D and then press a button on the security remote, does the RF signal go to the TM751 and then from there does the TM751 send that signal to the CM15A either as RF or PLC ?

If this doesn't work then I understand that I can also do an easy mod on the CM15A which may extend the range.  Since I have the TM751 I just figured that I would put it to some type of use.

[PajamaGuy]

Well, the first question is, "What do you want to do?"  Are you planning to have a security console like a DS7000?
If you're serious about security, I'd not rely on AHP.
If you ARE planning on a DS7000, then I'd use SR731 RF Smart Repeaters as necessary, (up to 4 ea.) to ensure all Security SENSORs and REMOTEs to talk to the DS7000 console - period & amen.

Then if you're planning on AHP for home automation, video, scaring away intruders and stray cats, and general fun, games, and reasons to spend money while pulling your hair out -  I'd start (and I have) with an XTBIIR, and a V572RF32, and go from there.

[bitman]

Oh dear!

1st Thanks to the OP for starting this thread.
I too have central control in my basement and it's gotta stay there.
I use AH not pro and a serial to powerline adapter that it uses at the moment and a TM751 which used to reside in the garage until I got a motion sensor and put it on the back deck.
Then I had to move the tm751 upstairs so the MS on the back deck could talk to it.

Goodness, that means if I do upgrade to AHP and that weak transceiver my system won't work.
Can we repeat that RF signal some way? or will a super long USB cable for the transceiver be in order.

Wait - there's google.

Is this what we are going to need?

http://www.smarthome.com/4015/X10-Radio-Frequency-Repeater-SR731-PSX01/p.aspx

:Ron

[berniejr72]

Well I was able to pick up a DS700, a security remote, 4 DS10A sensors, and a powerhorn for $25, so I grabbed it.  I'm not relying on this system a matter of life or death, but at the same time I currently have nothing in terms of a security system, so this is an upgrade, no matter how small.  From what I hear you saying though with the DS7000 is that I need the repeaters just so that sensors can talk properly with the DS700 console it self?

I'm building my system into a frontend called Xlobby which I currently use in my entire house for AV distribution.  I have 4 Touchscreens throughout the house which will allow me to control and monitor the system.  I will not be using X10 cameras as I already have 4 Linksys IP cameras that I use.  The X10 controllers will enhance those camera's by turning on the porch light when motion is sensed, which in turn will trigger the motion sensor in the cameras.

[thejfk]

Hey PajamaGuy,
I haven't gotten in to the security part of X10 yet, I'm still setting up my automation with a CM15 and AHP.
It sounds like what you are saying is, when I'm ready for security, I should use a DS7000 as a stand alone security system and AHP as my home automation system.
Is that correct?

[berniejr72]

After reading a little some more, I'm getting a better understanding of how the systems work.

The DS7000  communicates with the sensors and remotes completely independent of AH or AHP.  So I can setup my devices with the DS7000 console  and the system will be functional.  The console does have a housecode setting where you can set it to match lamp and appliance modules so if the Alarm  is tripped, it will flash those lights that share the same housecode.

Then once I setup AHP with the On Alert plug-in I have the ability to then add the security devices (console, sensors, remotes, etc.) into AHP.  When doing this AHP assigns codes based on the next available house/unit code.  I believe though I can go in and manually assign these devices to whatever code I want.  Regardless to what house/unit AHP assigns, this has no effect to how the devices are assigned to the console itself.  They are completely independent of each other.

So at this point I can use AHP and OA to monitor the status of security sensors and/or to Arm the system ,but not to Disarm the system.

The only question that remains for me is IF i experience range issues with the CM15A and how it communicates with the security devices, can i use the TM751 as a "bridge", assuming that it has better range, to help the CM15A better communicate with these security devices?

In this scenario I would assign security devices all on House code N, and unit codes 1-16 within AHP.  I would then register the TM751 in AHP and also set it to house code N. 

So basically the idea is that the TM751 acts similar to how an access point acts on a wireless network.  Am I completely off base with this idea?

[PajamaGuy]

The console does have a housecode setting where you can set it to match lamp and appliance modules so if the Alarm  is tripped, it will flash those lights that share the same housecode.

Correct - and be careful which appliance modules are assigned to that H/C.  Remember also that whatever UnitCode you select on the DS7000 is the "Security Lights" code.  When you arm the system, whatever is on that H/C-U/C will flash ON then OFF as a visual indication of a successful ARM.

When doing this AHP assigns codes based on the next available house/unit code.  I believe though I can go in and manually assign these devices to whatever code I want.

Well yeah, and I have - but it's not really easy, and other than making the listing of addresses used look neater, I haven't found any benefit.  Neither AHP nor the DS7000 "talk" to the security sensors using the H/C-U/C addressing.  And you can't run a macro on the AHP-assigned address of a security sensor.  However, if you write a macro that flips a phantom appliance module according to the state of the security sensor (using the sensor as a trigger), you can then use the ADDRESS of that phantom as a trigger for other macros...
 -OR-
If you get a WGL Designs "Whole House Transceiver" V572RF32, you can tell it to create PLC's for security devices' RF.  The right model is important.  The V572RF32:
1. It's a TRANSCEIVER - It receives RF from X10 devices and converts the RF from the air to PLC and sends those signals out on the powerline (house wiring).  If you push "D2-ON" on a palmpad, the palmpad sends out an RF signal. 
(a) If a TM751 is within range - AND- if it's set to HouseCode="D", it RECEIVEs the RF and TRANSlates it to a PowerLineCommand PLC of "D2-ON" and sends it out on the powerline (house wiring).  Any X10 module that is connected to the house wiring that is addressed as "D2" will turn on.
(b) If a CM15A is within range, AND if it's set to TRANSCEIVE H/C="D", it will do the same thing.  It will ALSO transmit the "D2-ON" to AHP if the PC is on and the USB is connected. - And even if it doesn't "see" the RF, it will pick up the PLC from the TM751 and send it to the AHP PC.
(c) A V572RF32 will do the same thing as a TM751 - Except that it will do all 256 HC/UC combinations, not just one HC - AND via its software, you can tell it to NOT transceive any/some/all of the 256 addresses.  It will ALSO convert the RF from Security Devices to "Used-Defined" HC/UC PLC's.  In other words, you can tell the V572 that when it receives the RF from a DS10A that is should send out a PLC of "G6-ON"
And the V572's range really is "whole-house"  - Note: The V572 only Transceives RF-to-PLC - it does not re-transmit RF - it will NOT help the DS7000's communication with its sensors.  But via PLC's, it extends the range of the CM15A and AHP.

I think you're a tad off on the TM751 = Wireless bridge.  Remember, the TM751 ONLY receives RF for its specified HC and TRANSCEIVES the RF into a PLC.  If you addresses an EagleEye motion sensor to Address G10, and you plugged in a TM751 within range of the EagleEye - AND the EagleEye was addressed to "G", then the RF from the EagleEye would be picked up by the TM751 and transceived onto the powerline as a G10 PLC.  So yes it would extend the range of EagleEye-to-AHP.  It would have no effect on or for  DS10A's, MS10As, or light & appliance modules (unless they were addressed the same as the EagleEye)
- sorry - gotta go to work.....

...to continue: 

In this scenario I would assign security devices all on House code N, and unit codes 1-16 within AHP.  I would then register the TM751 in AHP and also set it to house code N. 

Here it's a "NO" - While you can "assign" addresses to Security devices with AHP, that capability is just for mapping - not for action.  At least I've not found any way to use the address of a security sensor/device within AHP.  However as stated above, assigning addresses via V572 does create a valid PLC that AHP can act upon.

Does this make sense?

[PajamaGuy]

...one more thing -

Especially with a large house - you'll probably run into a phase issue.  Without a phase-coupler, X10 PLC's can't get from one phase to the other.  The generally accepted test is:  When you find a module that will work in one room/floor/wing/socket, but not in another - try it again, but turn ON any 220v appliance, like the oven or a clothes dryer.  If the module then works - you have a phase issue.

Although you can buy cheaper plug-in phase couplers, consider Jeff Volt's XTBIIR.  It not only couples the phases, it also amplifies the X10 PLC's.

There's a lot of reading here on PHASE and PLC signal issues - spend some time researching and posting questions.  There are guys here that are really experts.  (they're older than Moses, but they're experts  )

[Jim Clark]

And the V572's range really is "whole-house" 

And in my case whole yard. I was having RF range problems and had several TM751s installed throughout my house. I got a V572 and all of my range issues went away. I did a quick test and went to the bottom of my yard, about 150 Feet from the V572 and was able to control lights with any of the X10 RF devices (Palm Pad, key chain remotes and motion sensors).

[berniejr72]

PajamaGuy your information makes complete and total sense, and I now have a much clearer understanding of how the system works.  I may eventually end up with a V572RF32 if everything pans out the way that I would like.  I'm hopefull that I will not need one however.  I really only see myself with a limited number of RF devices, as most will only need to work via PLC.  The TM751 being only able to transceive for a specific code should be OK for me now, as I don't think I will need more than 16 addresses.

I've also been reading some about the phase coupler's and will definitely pick one up, as I'm 99% certain that i will need one.

Quote
In this scenario I would assign security devices all on House code N, and unit codes 1-16 within AHP.  I would then register the TM751 in AHP and also set it to house code N. 

Here it's a "NO" - While you can "assign" addresses to Security devices with AHP, that capability is just for mapping - not for action.  At least I've not found any way to use the address of a security sensor/device within AHP.  However as stated above, assigning addresses via V572 does create a valid PLC that AHP can act upon.

I'm still a little unclear about your statement here.  I was under the impression that once I added my security devices in AHP with the On-Alert plug-in, I could then create a macro where as I could arm the system.  That's really the only action item I need to have AHP perform for me, as it relates to security.

Thanks again for all of your help, this information will save me hours upon hours of frustration in mapping out my system